Nobility Moro Kris

Aslan Paladin · 26th September 2017, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCUAL

i picked this up on ebay sometime ago. nothing was changed or altered what so ever, the only thing i did was clean the blade. so this is maranao or maguindanao as well?

see link:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=twistcore

Going by Cato I think your kris blade is of the Sulu style as the lower jaw of mouth cavity of the kembang kacang (borrowing indonesian kris terminology) or elephant's head and trunk design of the gangya is pointing or angled downward and the shape of the mouth of the cavity itself is elliptical.

The sword in the original post has a blade of the Maguindanao style (as stated by Ian) as the lower jaw is perpendicular to the side of the guard rather than angled downward. It is unlikely of the Maranao style as the portion beneath the lower jaw is concave and not protruding forward. Overall I would go out on a limb and say the entire kris itself is Maguindanao made, with the Sulu style hilt explained by the historical contact between the inhabitants of Maguindanao and Sulu via trade.

Battara · 26th September 2017, 11:42 PM

I agree with Ian that this is a Maguindanao blade and and from the early 20th century. I can tell that it is pattern welded.

The metal mounts seem to be made of woven silver and brass or low copper/silver alloy bands.

As far as the pommel is concerned, it looks like horn, though there is a possibility of kamagong. The inlays are definitely bone. This is still a datu class piece.

Aslan Paladin · 27th September 2017, 12:11 AM

Battara, is this is a ceremonial datu sword or a working type datu sword?

CCUAL · 27th September 2017, 12:16 AM

So, is it safe to call that both of krisses are of Sulu origin? sorry,don't meant to highjack this thread.

Aslan Paladin · 27th September 2017, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCUAL

So, is it safe to call that both of krisses are of Sulu origin? sorry,don't meant to highjack this thread.

Yes, I think that both your kris swords are from Sulu. I am even more certain with the archaic kris.

CCUAL · 27th September 2017, 03:13 AM

i am still not convinced about the Maguindanaoan thing.

Aslan Paladin · 27th September 2017, 04:24 AM

It would be hard to state categorically that the kris is Maguindanao in origin as we only have the guard of the blade and the hilt to base our guess with (the blade suggesting Maguindanao and the hilt more likely Sulu). And we don't know if both parts were born together or married at a later date without inspection of the blade attachment to the hilt. The sword didn't come with a scabbard. Even Cato himself said that to successfully identify the origin of a kris a collector must look for clues in the guard, the form of the scabbard, and the configuration of the hilt in that order, and this is assuming the sword is all original in its parts with no marriages or replacement whatsoever. A proper provenance would be of big help but the seller only said it was found in an attic trunk. But still the opinion that the kris is Maguindanao in origin is IMHO reasonable using the guard configuration guideline set by Cato as has been mentioned before.

Battara · 28th September 2017, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCUAL

So, is it safe to call that both of krisses are of Sulu origin? sorry,don't meant to highjack this thread.

I would agree with Aslan that your krises are both Sulu in origin.

Battara · 28th September 2017, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aslan Paladin

Battara, is this is a ceremonial datu sword or a working type datu sword?

This would be a ceremonial sword and not a working one, which would be simpler.

mross · 29th September 2017, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I agree with Ian that this is a Maguindanao blade and and from the early 20th century. I can tell that it is pattern welded.

The metal mounts seem to be made of woven silver and brass or low copper/silver alloy bands.

As far as the pommel is concerned, it looks like horn, though there is a possibility of kamagong. The inlays are definitely bone. This is still a datu class piece.

Jose,
I like your wording much better than mine. I tend to be kinda blunt. I agree with your assessment. The pattern welding shows through even in the dirt, the luks just are not done well. As to Cato, it's a good starting point but that is as far as I will go.

Battara · 29th September 2017, 10:33 PM

Some Magindanao smiths started making these kind of luks after the turn of the 20th century. It seems that a more exaggerated form of these luks cam much later and copied by recent makers.

CharlesS · 16th October 2017, 05:23 PM

Here is the originally discussed kriss restored. The missing bone has been replaced, the blade cleaned and lightly etched, and the hilt fittings restored to their original luster.

The silver baca-baca have a lot of pinkish tint to them as does the top grip mount, and while it would be tempting to think they were swassa, I am convinced that they are a poor copper-silver alloy.

The grip fittings are not as well executed as they could be...not as crisp and precise. The blade is quite lovely etched. Based on the original pics I was expecting more pitting, but there was little or none.

The ganja is a classic Moro super tight fit but is separate from the blade.

I agree with the opinions that this is an early 20th-century piece....let's say before 1930.

mross · 16th October 2017, 06:36 PM

Cleaned up nice!

Aslan Paladin · 16th October 2017, 06:46 PM

Nice restoration on the pommel Charles. I'm glad that it was you who got it and brought it back to its old glory. It is exactly how I envisioned it would be. Got to love the nice blade lamination pattern and the exquisitely shaped greneng.

27th September 2017, 12:16 AM	#4
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	So, is it safe to call that both of krisses are of Sulu origin? sorry,don't meant to highjack this thread. Attached Images

27th September 2017, 03:13 AM	#6
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	i am still not convinced about the Maguindanaoan thing. Attached Images Last edited by CCUAL; 27th September 2017 at 03:26 AM.

16th October 2017, 05:23 PM	#12
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Here is the originally discussed kriss restored. The missing bone has been replaced, the blade cleaned and lightly etched, and the hilt fittings restored to their original luster. The silver baca-baca have a lot of pinkish tint to them as does the top grip mount, and while it would be tempting to think they were swassa, I am convinced that they are a poor copper-silver alloy. The grip fittings are not as well executed as they could be...not as crisp and precise. The blade is quite lovely etched. Based on the original pics I was expecting more pitting, but there was little or none. The ganja is a classic Moro super tight fit but is separate from the blade. I agree with the opinions that this is an early 20th-century piece....let's say before 1930. Attached Images Last edited by CharlesS; 16th October 2017 at 06:02 PM.

26th September 2017, 11:42 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I agree with Ian that this is a Maguindanao blade and and from the early 20th century. I can tell that it is pattern welded. The metal mounts seem to be made of woven silver and brass or low copper/silver alloy bands. As far as the pommel is concerned, it looks like horn, though there is a possibility of kamagong. The inlays are definitely bone. This is still a datu class piece.

27th September 2017, 12:11 AM	#3
Aslan Paladin Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Te Aroha, New Zealand Posts: 122	Battara, is this is a ceremonial datu sword or a working type datu sword?

27th September 2017, 04:24 AM	#7
Aslan Paladin Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Te Aroha, New Zealand Posts: 122	It would be hard to state categorically that the kris is Maguindanao in origin as we only have the guard of the blade and the hilt to base our guess with (the blade suggesting Maguindanao and the hilt more likely Sulu). And we don't know if both parts were born together or married at a later date without inspection of the blade attachment to the hilt. The sword didn't come with a scabbard. Even Cato himself said that to successfully identify the origin of a kris a collector must look for clues in the guard, the form of the scabbard, and the configuration of the hilt in that order, and this is assuming the sword is all original in its parts with no marriages or replacement whatsoever. A proper provenance would be of big help but the seller only said it was found in an attic trunk. But still the opinion that the kris is Maguindanao in origin is IMHO reasonable using the guard configuration guideline set by Cato as has been mentioned before.

29th September 2017, 10:33 PM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Some Magindanao smiths started making these kind of luks after the turn of the 20th century. It seems that a more exaggerated form of these luks cam much later and copied by recent makers.

16th October 2017, 06:36 PM	#13
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Cleaned up nice!

16th October 2017, 06:46 PM	#14
Aslan Paladin Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Te Aroha, New Zealand Posts: 122	Nice restoration on the pommel Charles. I'm glad that it was you who got it and brought it back to its old glory. It is exactly how I envisioned it would be. Got to love the nice blade lamination pattern and the exquisitely shaped greneng.