Interesting sword for comment

PUFF · 15th March 2006, 09:50 AM

The black stuff could be welding oxide or Black pitch which 's used for mounting.

RSWORD · 15th March 2006, 01:15 PM

Ariel- It does look that way however that is not the case. When you look closely at that area, you can see that the area in question has corroded from where a hilt once was located and it is the shape of this corrosion which gives clues as to the hilt style.

Puff- There is remnants of some type of adhesive. I believe due to the short tang that it would have been adhered via some type of substance. Mixed in this is some remnants of something organic. However, the black coloration is primarily due to patination and not adhesive or weld oxide. I know the difference.

ham · 15th March 2006, 04:45 PM

Rsword,

I am beginning to get a sense of this blade but we really need to see macro images of both sides of this portion please:

Ham

B.I · 15th March 2006, 09:58 PM

hi rick,
very interesting piece to discuss. not my field of course, but happy to throw in some random observations.
the tang seems uneven and not very symetrical. i wonder if the tang has been cut out of the top of the blade. the shoulder of the blade seems too uneven to be made by the bladesmith. also, there are two grooves on the tang. could these be the extended fullers (cant tell whether they stop at the top of the blade from the full images).
also, the tang seems a little thin and rule of thumb says that it should be thicker than the blade (generally but not always).
i will always opt for late trade blades and hope i am wrong and it turns out to be something earlier.
i get the feeling the rounded off tip was never intentional and wonder if had a transformation (in the tip, tang and hilt) at some point in its life. the evidence of 'witness marks' could possible lead to a kaskara or even a tulwar hilt. i dont feel that it is early as the blades yucel mentions were of very high quality (straight bladed, multi fullered). the eneveness of the fullers make me feel its later.
as i said, just random observations and look forward to the close up images of the region ham suggested.

RSWORD · 16th July 2006, 01:55 AM

I have been continuing my research on this piece. One way of research is to poll colleagues to get their opinion so I had this with me back in March at Timonium. I received quite a wide variety of opinion as to where this piece originated and potential age. So, I decide the best way to further the research was to have one side of the blade polished to reveal any metallurgical details. The blade turns out to be wootz steel. The pattern is very faint, not very visible, but definitely there. So, this would rule out an European trade blade and this would rule out Africa as far as Kaskara or Takouba blade. The blade, while simple looking in pictures, is quite well forged, very well tempered and the steel is quite hard, not only on the edges but the body as well. It is extremely flexible and sharp. As Philip put it, it was made for business. Also, we were able to determine other things from the polish. The tang is not seperately forged on but integral with the blade. The fullers are forged into the blade and run right up to the tang. The tip was made this way. I have added two additional images, one is a close up of the tang area, and the other is a close up of the faint wootz pattern(probably mostly lost due to lack of heat control during forging) so that with this additional information we may collectively have new opinions about this piece. Thoughts?

Rivkin · 16th July 2006, 03:59 AM

The only such blade I have seen was an XIth century sword from Arabia. I think it is possibly a fantastic find.

S.Al-Anizi · 16th July 2006, 05:17 AM

Thanks for bringing this up again Rick, I always wanted to discuss this. May I ask where you got it? And if you asked its previous owner where he obtained it? I think you may have a VERY old piece here, no newer than 5 centuries. As others have pointed out arab, the closest arab style ive seen is those Syrian swords in Dr.Yucel's book, but this one's tip is quite round, which means a cutter, not a cut-and-thrust. With the wootz, this is probably either Yemeni or Syrian, pre-15th century, if indeed it were arab. However, that tiny tang does not suite arab hilts and designs at all. I would rule out the Kattara, as the tang is too short for Kattara hilt, which is usually quite long, can be classified as a hand-and-a-half. The tang seems to be the mystery of this blade.

Rivkin, I would love to see that piece. Have you got pics??

15th March 2006, 04:45 PM	#3
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Rsword, I am beginning to get a sense of this blade but we really need to see macro images of both sides of this portion please: Ham Attached Images

16th July 2006, 01:55 AM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	I have been continuing my research on this piece. One way of research is to poll colleagues to get their opinion so I had this with me back in March at Timonium. I received quite a wide variety of opinion as to where this piece originated and potential age. So, I decide the best way to further the research was to have one side of the blade polished to reveal any metallurgical details. The blade turns out to be wootz steel. The pattern is very faint, not very visible, but definitely there. So, this would rule out an European trade blade and this would rule out Africa as far as Kaskara or Takouba blade. The blade, while simple looking in pictures, is quite well forged, very well tempered and the steel is quite hard, not only on the edges but the body as well. It is extremely flexible and sharp. As Philip put it, it was made for business. Also, we were able to determine other things from the polish. The tang is not seperately forged on but integral with the blade. The fullers are forged into the blade and run right up to the tang. The tip was made this way. I have added two additional images, one is a close up of the tang area, and the other is a close up of the faint wootz pattern(probably mostly lost due to lack of heat control during forging) so that with this additional information we may collectively have new opinions about this piece. Thoughts? Attached Images

15th March 2006, 09:50 AM	#1
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	The black stuff could be welding oxide or Black pitch which 's used for mounting.

15th March 2006, 01:15 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Ariel- It does look that way however that is not the case. When you look closely at that area, you can see that the area in question has corroded from where a hilt once was located and it is the shape of this corrosion which gives clues as to the hilt style. Puff- There is remnants of some type of adhesive. I believe due to the short tang that it would have been adhered via some type of substance. Mixed in this is some remnants of something organic. However, the black coloration is primarily due to patination and not adhesive or weld oxide. I know the difference.

15th March 2006, 09:58 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi rick, very interesting piece to discuss. not my field of course, but happy to throw in some random observations. the tang seems uneven and not very symetrical. i wonder if the tang has been cut out of the top of the blade. the shoulder of the blade seems too uneven to be made by the bladesmith. also, there are two grooves on the tang. could these be the extended fullers (cant tell whether they stop at the top of the blade from the full images). also, the tang seems a little thin and rule of thumb says that it should be thicker than the blade (generally but not always). i will always opt for late trade blades and hope i am wrong and it turns out to be something earlier. i get the feeling the rounded off tip was never intentional and wonder if had a transformation (in the tip, tang and hilt) at some point in its life. the evidence of 'witness marks' could possible lead to a kaskara or even a tulwar hilt. i dont feel that it is early as the blades yucel mentions were of very high quality (straight bladed, multi fullered). the eneveness of the fullers make me feel its later. as i said, just random observations and look forward to the close up images of the region ham suggested.

16th July 2006, 03:59 AM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	The only such blade I have seen was an XIth century sword from Arabia. I think it is possibly a fantastic find.

16th July 2006, 05:17 AM	#7
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Thanks for bringing this up again Rick, I always wanted to discuss this. May I ask where you got it? And if you asked its previous owner where he obtained it? I think you may have a VERY old piece here, no newer than 5 centuries. As others have pointed out arab, the closest arab style ive seen is those Syrian swords in Dr.Yucel's book, but this one's tip is quite round, which means a cutter, not a cut-and-thrust. With the wootz, this is probably either Yemeni or Syrian, pre-15th century, if indeed it were arab. However, that tiny tang does not suite arab hilts and designs at all. I would rule out the Kattara, as the tang is too short for Kattara hilt, which is usually quite long, can be classified as a hand-and-a-half. The tang seems to be the mystery of this blade. Rivkin, I would love to see that piece. Have you got pics??