Karud: the weapon that did not exist:-)

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent discussion, and as Lee has noted, many terms and long held 'chestnuts' concerning the spectrum of arms have been firmly in place or 'written in Stone' . However, as with most aspects of history and all its ancillary studies, it is well to learn all we can on origins and development of not just the forms, but their descriptive terms' etymology. Stone himself knew the frailty of his chosen subject matter, and that his work would serve as the benchmark it has become, and encouraged research to continue,

The very nature of these aspects are often of course nuanced, subtle and many have clearly gone unnoticed or unattended at large, which is exactly why these perspectives by Ariel and Dmitry are so well placed.

[ariel]

OK, I am back. Snoopy passed the test with flying colors. She came home and immediately fell asleep. Good girl.

Again, thank you all for your feedback.

The goal of my little research was to trace the origin of the word Karud and to tell a cautionary tale how important it is to read primary sources with attention.

To my great relief and satisfaction nobody questioned the veracity of my analysis. This is already good:-)

All the dissenting opinions were centered around a different question: given that right now we all know that Karud is not a real word, but a mistranscription of Kard, should we still use it in our communications and publications? Several Forumites said that the word Karud is so deeply ingrained in our vocabulary and so convenient to use, that abandoning it will make communications difficult if not impossible.

Well, I think there is no reason to catastophise: multiple authors of important publications manage not to use the word Karud at all, designating these daggers simply as Peshkabz ( with straight blade).

Such is the case with the Polish book "Persian arms and armour" ( Ed. by A.R. Chodynski): see ## 177,179-181, 182. In that book, L. Kobylinski states that some examples of Peshkabz had recurved blades, while other had straight blades (p.65).
"Oriental weapons" by J. Caravana ( #59)
" Splendeur des armes orientales" (#209)
" Arms of the Paladins" by O. Pinchot (#3-107)
"Catalogue de la collection d'armes anciennes" by C Buttin ( ##699, 700)
"Contribution a l'etude...." By P. Holstein, (#141)
"Islamic and Oriental Arms and Armor" by R. Hales ( ## 19-21,24,27,32, 33, 36,79,140,167)
" Mortal Beauty" ( published under the aegis of Museum of Oriental Art in Moscow) #91
" The arts of the Muslim Knight" by B. Mohamed #183
" Arms and Armor from Iran" by M. M. Khorasani: #260. I think nobody would argue with his mastery of Persian language and arms :-)
He also mentions that locally Peshkabz with straight blade was called " shotorkosh", camel killer ( p.237)

As we can see, it is quite easy to communicate without involving the word "Karud".
And, for those who want a short and precise definition that is in complete agreement with the local usage, why not use
" shotorkosh"? :-)

On a serious note, nobody can ban a certain word from conversational practice. How about a compromise: using "Karud" in unofficial discussions ( yielding to the ardent devotees of this word), but avoiding it in any serious academic publication
( accepting the fact that it has nothing to do with local usage and became popular only due to phonetic mishap by the Europeans) ?

Although Shotorkosh still sounds grand! :-)

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, I think there is no reason to catastophise: multiple authors of important publications manage not to use the word Karud at all, designating these daggers simply as Peshkabz.

But they are not pesh-kabz, why didnt the makers of these daggers just create more pesh-kabz if they were making peshkabz???? Just because they are similar in some aspects does not make then the same and just because SOME authors made the mistake of thinking that the karud and pesh-kabz are the same why should we?

Why stop here, lets not call a "choora" a choora, or a "kyber knife" a kyber knife...the original makers of these weapons did not call them by these names.

Take the Indian tegha sword, similar to a tulwar but different enough to have its own name, the list goes on, I could show many such examples.

And while we are at it, since you brought up the "kard" dagger many times, just because the karud and the dagger we now call a "kard" both have only one cutting edge does not make them the same either, examples below.

I trust what my eyes see, not what some authors decides is right, they have been wrong before, on many occasions, same with museums, and auction houses etc. We now have online an abundance of images and can see for ourselves which weapons are basically the same and which are different enough to have a separate name.

Look at the examples of karud and kard daggers below...would anyone mistake them for being the same?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

" Arms and Armor from Iran" by M. M. Khorasani: #260. I think nobody would argue with his mastery of Persian language and arms :-)
He also mentions that locally Peshkabz with straight blade was called " shotorkosh", camel killer ( p.237)

Ariel, karud daggers come from India, Afghanistan as well as Persia (I do not remember ever seeing an ottoman karud), what is the Indian name and what is the Afghan name, and why should we in the west be confined to what some native many years ago supposedly called a certain weapon if it now has a currently used and accepted name. On the other hand, if a particular weapons proved to be different enough to have an individual name and it ws not already named this would be a different matter entirely.

[ariel]

Eric,
You are missing the point again.
Kard, just like choora is just a " knife" in Persian and "Hindoostanee" respectively. Here Gilchrist was 100% correct.
Nobody with a minimal knowledge of weapons from that area would confuse kard with peshkabz ( or even karud, if you want it). Two immediate differences just jump out at you: peshkabz has a sudden narrowing of the blade next to the handle and also has a T-spine.
But all of them are just knives.
Perhaps, you should look at the references I cited and let all of us know why they are NOT peshkabz ( es?).

Overall, I take my hat off to you, if you think that all the abovementioned authors ( including Mohamed, Pinchot, Kobylinski, Hales, Buttin, Holstein etc.) were mistaken, and you alone are correct.


In one thing you are unquestionably correct: Persian peshkabz with recurved blade , Central Asian and Indian "Karud" ( you see how accomodating I am?) with straight blade and Afghani Mahsud choora all belong to the same family, with just ethnic variations.

As to Khyber knife, this is yet another example of the European domination of printed word in general and weapon literature in particular. Over here somebody mentioned long ago the work of a Latvian knife aficionado Denis Cherevichnik: he found an old Pashto-English dictionary in which this weapon was locally called " selawah". This is the origin of the pre-"Khyber knife" European moniker Salawar Yataghan: Selawah mutated to British transcription Salawar, and yataghan possibly was added because of a similarity of the recurved profile of some "khybers" to a more familiar Ottoman weapon.

Here is the reference ( took me some time to find it in old archives):

Raverty, H. G. (Henry George). A dictionary of the Pukhto, Pushto, or language of the Afghans: with remarks on the originality of the language, and its affinity to other oriental tongues. Second edition, with considerable additions. London: Williams and Norgate, 1867



________________________________________
سیلاوه selā-waʿh, s.f. (3rd) A large and long knife, a formidable weapon about two feet long or more, used by the Afg̠ẖāns. Pl. يْ ey
(Raverty, 1867.P. 1143)

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Overall, I take my hat off to you, if you think that all the abovementioned authors were mistaken, and you are correct.

I go with what my eyes tell me, how many times have I heard people say the "Stone was wrong". Just because a certain writer has some credibility does not always mean that they are right.

[estcrh]

(double post)

[estcrh]

The use of the term 'karud" goes way back, is it any wonder that people have accepted and use the term now, George Stone used in it 1934. That is over 70yrs I believe, and you suddenly want to eliminate the term because....can you explain again, I still cant quite figure out why we should stop using it.

A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor: in All Countries and in All Times, by George Cameron Stone, 1934.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Perhaps, you should look at the references I cited and let all of us know why they are NOT peshkabz ( es?).

I have already SHOWN why, the images I posted show a straight bladed karud dagger, a pesh-kabz is curved bladed, unless you really believe there is absolutely no difference and they are exactly the same dagger and that the makers of these daggers believed that they were making the same dagger, but then if that were true why bother to make a straight bladed dagger and a curved bladed dagger?

Not to long ago you were the one arguing that certain swords that appeared to be shashka were in fact not actually shashka but just happened to look like shashka.

Now you are arguing that two daggers that look completely different are actually the same...humm....

[ariel]

Perhaps, you should re-read my original post and look at Fig.2. Everything you just said in your multiple posts was already there.
I do not think there is any reason for me to continue arguing with you: you either not reading or not comprehending.
Please feel free to use any word you wish.
I am going to bed.
Best wishes and good night.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Perhaps, you should re-read my original post and look at Fig.2. Everything you just said in your multiple posts was already there.
I do not think there is any reason for me to continue arguing with you: you either not reading or not comprehending.
Please feel free to use any word you wish.
I am going to bed.
Best wishes and good night.

Ok, run off, but as for your post #2, it is blurry and you did not say were it can from or the date. Sorry you are unable to handle any type of disagreement with your theory but that is what people do on forums, disagree, argue and put their best research forward for others to judge.

I was just giving any interested people some visual proof that the word karud has fairly widely used for a long period of time. You are the one who out of the blue suddenly decided that we should completely stop using the word.

[estcrh]

Here is a reference to "karud", 1843



Cabool: A Personal Narrative of a Journey To, and Residence in that City, in the Years 1836, 7, and 8, Sir Alexander Burnes J. Murray, 1843

[estcrh]

Here is a mention of a "karud" knife, 1825.


Hindoostanee Philology: Comprising a Dictionary, English and Hindoostanee; with a Grammatical Introduction, Volume 1, John Borthwick Gilchrist, Kingsbury, Parbury, and Allen, 1825.