Difficulty’s in working with meteorite as a pamor material

Rick · 13th March 2006, 04:00 PM

< Deep breath taken ; thank you Kai Wee >

Pusaka , if you read post #3 I think you would have seen the following passage :

" So you give a smith a chunk of meteorite, they think it is iron, they get it
hot, smash it with a hammer and it crumbles to bits. It'll happen 9 times out
of 10 this way. You need to "flatten it gently" and then sheath it in a
good quality iron and weld it back, very similar to refining wrought iron
bloom. This will help drive out all the "crud" and impurities as well as
getting the grain structure refined and allowing it to weld back to itself
without the red short effect (this is what the crumbling is commonly called). "

The Pandai Keris forges of Jawa and Madura are not flush with Yoder power hammers and all sorts of modern equipment to do their work . They would doubtless still use the old method by hand as described in the above passage by Dr. Hrisoulas .

So when you say :

" I’m guessing that modern Indonesian keris makers would get their meteorites from ebay like anyone else so nickel content and therefore pamor contrast would vary greatly depending what meteorite you selected. I am more interested in the difficulty’s a modern keris maker would face. "

My eyes roll ; why would an Indonesian Pandai keris (not Empu) waste his money (what little he has) bidding for meteor pieces on ebay for inclusion into the pamor of a keris which when finished cannot be proven to have meteoritic pamor without destructive testing when it would be so much easier just to claim meteoritic origin ?

So I guess that it would be *possible* for your scenario to happen but IMO it's very unlikely .

Pusaka · 13th March 2006, 05:42 PM

I was told of a different method of making the meteorite pamor. It is true that when you heat a meteorite it will crumble into bits. I was told that iron filings are mixed with the meteorite and then pounded together to form a usable pamor material.

Pusaka · 13th March 2006, 06:18 PM

According to Ki Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo: http://www.joglosemar.co.id/whos/djeno.html

“Physically, the materials for manufacturing must be prepared such as, 12 Kg of Iron; 0.5 Kg of Nickel, 100 grams of meteorite”

This means that a typical meteorite pamor keris consists of 95% Iron, 4% Nickel and only 1% meteorite material.

It would indeed be impossible to detect that 1% meteorite content without chemical analysis.

I’m guessing that he adds the extra nickel to obtain a bright pamor as the meteorite if used without adding nickel would probably produce a dull pamor.

purwacarita · 14th March 2006, 01:46 AM

And it is still called meteorite though it is already technically engineered on earth ? I thought meteorite is extra terrestrial metal. Darn.

Traditional methods usually have empirical approaches and tends to stray the constructiev progress to superstitions. Modern methods usually have technical scientific engineering approaches and tends to deny the real magic of the old world with logic.

This thread will not be complete if the metal tempering area has not been covered. Like I was told that keris is tempered by dipping the whole blade into water without any temperature and timing standard but only by the smith's feeling. And still it could produce a variation blade texture like the pamor materials go out of the surface or dive into the blade, making a beautiful pamor of Ron Genduro or Bulu Ayam. Is that the same meteorite, just temper play (e.g partial tempering) or because different hardness of different metal which harder metal squeezes softer one during tempering?

Is it scientificly possible that combined mixture of metals in pamor could naturally produce electro-voltaic energy like a electro-static capacitor?

Hmm., I don't see any use of the answers for myself

but it could be useful to others who might need it to improve keris smith in Indonesia. Thank you in advance for your gentle answers, you know, I do try to ask the question gently.

~Hing ngarson sing tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani

nechesh · 14th March 2006, 01:58 AM

Gee Purwacarita, you asked the question so gently that i'm not even sure exactly what it is you are asking.....or trying to say.

And would you mind translating that last line for this ignorant American?

purwacarita · 14th March 2006, 06:12 AM

Hi nechesh. It's good to read your gentle sarcasm once again. Last time you charged this innocent

young man with accusation of disrespect.

I recall that I've described the meaning in my last post several months ago, and now you ask me to describe it once again while you ignore it ? Please,.... give me a break!

Many others can do the job much better than me.

It is a philosophycal principle of idealism of life by Ki Hajar Dewantara. He is reknown as the father of education of Indonesia. The meaning of the principle is that people have three positions, in front, in the middle, and in the rear. Where people in front position should give good examples, while people in the middle shall share spirit with their surrounding neighbor to constructiveness. At last where people in the rear position must stimulate others with contructive motivation. It is felt that the difference between these three position is that people in front is somehow entitled leaders, in the middle - the workers, in the rear - wives.

Though in the beginning this saying is the principle mostly refers to teachers in education field, nowadays only a few is willing to explore to its deeper meaning. It is an Indonesia national saying rarely spoken again, I hate it when you're right, but more or less it's because of capitalism like you quoted earlier.

We have a national symbol too which has a saying in the ribbon banner, Bhinneka Tunggal Ika. It means Diversity in Unity. So easy to say but very hard to implement specially in new communities where everyone else is different. I guess that what causes the 2 blasts and Jagadnata bombing, some people cannot accept that we are different from them.

~Hing ngarso sing tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut Wuri Handayani.

Gitu Loh!

Boedhi Adhitya · 14th March 2006, 06:19 AM

Pusaka, I believe joglosemar wrongfully quote Empu Djeno. If we use meteorite as a pamor material, we needs roughly twice times than the pure nickel amount. So, it should be : "0.5 Kg. Meteorite, 100 grams (pure) Nickel". We should put "or" between meteorite and nickel, since when you have 0.5Kg good meteorite at hand, it should be sufficient to make a good pamor without the additions of nickel, and if we have 100 gram nickel it should also sufficient, and any additions of meteorite should be considered as "magical purpose". 0.5 kg nickel would be too much. (IMHO, the correct entry should be: 12 Kg iron, 0.5 Kg Steel, 100 gr. Nickel or 200 gr meteorite). Please remember, I'm talking about a very good pamor material, as good as Prambanan Meteorite. Having opportunity of handling personally this pamor, I must say, it resembles a pieces of iron than a piece of stone. It shows metallic-grey when you scratch it, and it is very likely that you don't need to wrap it with a stripe of wrought iron to prepare it, as long as you hammer it carefully. Empu Jeno, I believe, was only working succesfully on this very good meteorite pamor material, when Sultan HB IX commisioned a keris, and didn't add any nickel since he had sufficient amount. Empu Jeno told me that he needs to put the big chunk on forge for 3 days just to cut a small pieces of material needed. He also told me that once a Belgian came to commision a keris and also brought meteorite as the pamor material. But Jeno said that it was "unproper type" meteorite, and thus, he could not use it. I have never heard that Empu Jeno works on meteorite pamor material other than Prambanans. This meteorite, and kerises, will be exhibited in Sekaten Festival of Kraton Jogjakarta, which will be held this year on 1 - 11 April 2006.

Best Regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

purwacarita · 14th March 2006, 11:35 AM

What called Steel is a variation of Fe and C combination imho. Jim Hrisoulas has done well with modern formula but it'll take time before become absorbable into traditional methods of keris smith. If a Belgian was serious enough to commission a traditional keris smith process, don't you think that someone should repay the visit?

~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.

13th March 2006, 04:00 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	< Deep breath taken ; thank you Kai Wee > Pusaka , if you read post #3 I think you would have seen the following passage : " So you give a smith a chunk of meteorite, they think it is iron, they get it hot, smash it with a hammer and it crumbles to bits. It'll happen 9 times out of 10 this way. You need to "flatten it gently" and then sheath it in a good quality iron and weld it back, very similar to refining wrought iron bloom. This will help drive out all the "crud" and impurities as well as getting the grain structure refined and allowing it to weld back to itself without the red short effect (this is what the crumbling is commonly called). " The Pandai Keris forges of Jawa and Madura are not flush with Yoder power hammers and all sorts of modern equipment to do their work . They would doubtless still use the old method by hand as described in the above passage by Dr. Hrisoulas . So when you say : " I’m guessing that modern Indonesian keris makers would get their meteorites from ebay like anyone else so nickel content and therefore pamor contrast would vary greatly depending what meteorite you selected. I am more interested in the difficulty’s a modern keris maker would face. " My eyes roll ; why would an Indonesian Pandai keris (not Empu) waste his money (what little he has) bidding for meteor pieces on ebay for inclusion into the pamor of a keris which when finished cannot be proven to have meteoritic pamor without destructive testing when it would be so much easier just to claim meteoritic origin ? So I guess that it would be possible for your scenario to happen but IMO it's very unlikely .

13th March 2006, 05:42 PM	#2
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I was told of a different method of making the meteorite pamor. It is true that when you heat a meteorite it will crumble into bits. I was told that iron filings are mixed with the meteorite and then pounded together to form a usable pamor material.

13th March 2006, 06:18 PM	#3
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	According to Ki Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo: http://www.joglosemar.co.id/whos/djeno.html “Physically, the materials for manufacturing must be prepared such as, 12 Kg of Iron; 0.5 Kg of Nickel, 100 grams of meteorite” This means that a typical meteorite pamor keris consists of 95% Iron, 4% Nickel and only 1% meteorite material. It would indeed be impossible to detect that 1% meteorite content without chemical analysis. I’m guessing that he adds the extra nickel to obtain a bright pamor as the meteorite if used without adding nickel would probably produce a dull pamor.

14th March 2006, 01:46 AM	#4
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	And it is still called meteorite though it is already technically engineered on earth ? I thought meteorite is extra terrestrial metal. Darn. Traditional methods usually have empirical approaches and tends to stray the constructiev progress to superstitions. Modern methods usually have technical scientific engineering approaches and tends to deny the real magic of the old world with logic. This thread will not be complete if the metal tempering area has not been covered. Like I was told that keris is tempered by dipping the whole blade into water without any temperature and timing standard but only by the smith's feeling. And still it could produce a variation blade texture like the pamor materials go out of the surface or dive into the blade, making a beautiful pamor of Ron Genduro or Bulu Ayam. Is that the same meteorite, just temper play (e.g partial tempering) or because different hardness of different metal which harder metal squeezes softer one during tempering? Is it scientificly possible that combined mixture of metals in pamor could naturally produce electro-voltaic energy like a electro-static capacitor? Hmm., I don't see any use of the answers for myself but it could be useful to others who might need it to improve keris smith in Indonesia. Thank you in advance for your gentle answers, you know, I do try to ask the question gently. ~Hing ngarson sing tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani

14th March 2006, 01:58 AM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Gee Purwacarita, you asked the question so gently that i'm not even sure exactly what it is you are asking.....or trying to say. And would you mind translating that last line for this ignorant American?

14th March 2006, 06:12 AM	#6
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	Hi nechesh. It's good to read your gentle sarcasm once again. Last time you charged this innocent young man with accusation of disrespect. I recall that I've described the meaning in my last post several months ago, and now you ask me to describe it once again while you ignore it ? Please,.... give me a break! Many others can do the job much better than me. It is a philosophycal principle of idealism of life by Ki Hajar Dewantara. He is reknown as the father of education of Indonesia. The meaning of the principle is that people have three positions, in front, in the middle, and in the rear. Where people in front position should give good examples, while people in the middle shall share spirit with their surrounding neighbor to constructiveness. At last where people in the rear position must stimulate others with contructive motivation. It is felt that the difference between these three position is that people in front is somehow entitled leaders, in the middle - the workers, in the rear - wives. Though in the beginning this saying is the principle mostly refers to teachers in education field, nowadays only a few is willing to explore to its deeper meaning. It is an Indonesia national saying rarely spoken again, I hate it when you're right, but more or less it's because of capitalism like you quoted earlier. We have a national symbol too which has a saying in the ribbon banner, Bhinneka Tunggal Ika. It means Diversity in Unity. So easy to say but very hard to implement specially in new communities where everyone else is different. I guess that what causes the 2 blasts and Jagadnata bombing, some people cannot accept that we are different from them. ~Hing ngarso sing tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut Wuri Handayani. Gitu Loh!

14th March 2006, 06:19 AM	#7
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	Pusaka, I believe joglosemar wrongfully quote Empu Djeno. If we use meteorite as a pamor material, we needs roughly twice times than the pure nickel amount. So, it should be : "0.5 Kg. Meteorite, 100 grams (pure) Nickel". We should put "or" between meteorite and nickel, since when you have 0.5Kg good meteorite at hand, it should be sufficient to make a good pamor without the additions of nickel, and if we have 100 gram nickel it should also sufficient, and any additions of meteorite should be considered as "magical purpose". 0.5 kg nickel would be too much. (IMHO, the correct entry should be: 12 Kg iron, 0.5 Kg Steel, 100 gr. Nickel or 200 gr meteorite). Please remember, I'm talking about a very good pamor material, as good as Prambanan Meteorite. Having opportunity of handling personally this pamor, I must say, it resembles a pieces of iron than a piece of stone. It shows metallic-grey when you scratch it, and it is very likely that you don't need to wrap it with a stripe of wrought iron to prepare it, as long as you hammer it carefully. Empu Jeno, I believe, was only working succesfully on this very good meteorite pamor material, when Sultan HB IX commisioned a keris, and didn't add any nickel since he had sufficient amount. Empu Jeno told me that he needs to put the big chunk on forge for 3 days just to cut a small pieces of material needed. He also told me that once a Belgian came to commision a keris and also brought meteorite as the pamor material. But Jeno said that it was "unproper type" meteorite, and thus, he could not use it. I have never heard that Empu Jeno works on meteorite pamor material other than Prambanans. This meteorite, and kerises, will be exhibited in Sekaten Festival of Kraton Jogjakarta, which will be held this year on 1 - 11 April 2006. Best Regards, Boedhi Adhitya

14th March 2006, 11:35 AM	#8
purwacarita Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 54	What called Steel is a variation of Fe and C combination imho. Jim Hrisoulas has done well with modern formula but it'll take time before become absorbable into traditional methods of keris smith. If a Belgian was serious enough to commission a traditional keris smith process, don't you think that someone should repay the visit? ~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.