Talismanic inscriptions on a Barong

VVV · 10th March 2006, 10:30 AM

I hope some of the Moro experts can help with explaining the signs on this Barong?
As I understand it's a double edged Shandigan?
- The Ring of Solomon I recognise but what's the "cross tongue" below it?
- Is it a dog or something else depicted closest to the tip?
- Is it a naga or a centipede at the other side of the blade?
- And what's the meaning of the symbols?

All comments appreciated.

Michael

VVV · 10th March 2006, 10:40 AM

Here is a close up of the blade of the Barong from the seller.
One day maybe I will learn how to take better pictures...

Michael

BluErf · 10th March 2006, 12:28 PM

Hey, this barong looks mighty familiar!!!!!

Fantastic catch!

VVV · 10th March 2006, 12:40 PM

Thanks!

Michael

Alam Shah · 10th March 2006, 02:26 PM

With that tag, I guess it's a giveaway from which auction...

The second picture, it might be "Dhu'l Faqar", the holy sword of Islam.

Refer to this thread for details on this sword...
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1923

ariel · 10th March 2006, 02:37 PM

I am not a collector or enthusiast of Moro swords, so please give me a slack.
The undulating snake with transverse lines reminds me of Persian motives.
Going totally on a limb, is it possible that the dog is a local "transcription" of a famous Passau mark? Many local blades from the Caucasus ("ters maimal")to E.Africa carried fake Passau marks as a testament to their quality.
Would it be possible that the maker of this Barong just went overboard and marked his creation with marks from all the best swords he knew: Passau, Persian and Zulfikar just as an equivalent of "Wow, look at it!"
And indeed, it is a very, very well made blade, something to be proud of.

VVV · 10th March 2006, 02:42 PM

Alam Shah,

Thanks for solving one of the symbols.
And I have removed the tag picture in my post above after "discreet" hints
from the Singapore group

And thanks to Ariel for your comments.
I am not that familiar with weapons from those areas so I have to do
some research on your suggestions.

Michael

Ian · 10th March 2006, 11:22 PM

Michael:

Thanks very much for showing this beautiful barung. In my experience it is rare to find extensive inlaid work on the blade of a barung. I have one example of a high end barung with inlaid brass designs -- our fellow Forumite, Battara, did an excellent restoration of that barung and there may still be pictures on this site. Other than my example, I don't recall more than a couple other barung that I have seen with inlaid designs.

Ian.

Here is the link to that thread on the old web site. Pictures are shown before and after restoration.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002259.html

VVV · 11th March 2006, 12:20 AM

Ian,

Thanks for sharing pictures of your great Barong!
And a fantastic work Battara!
A pity the geographical distance between us is so big.
I would love to have some of my weapons restored like that.
Unfortunately I would probably have to pay half of the value
just to bring them in to US and then back to Europe again.
Or spend a week in Customs filling out papers

Michael

kino · 12th March 2006, 05:59 PM

What a beauty. Congrats!

VVV · 12th March 2006, 06:29 PM

Thanks Kino,

Isn't there any forum member who recognise the "dog"
and the "naga" symbols from a Moro perspective?

Michael

Tim Simmons · 12th March 2006, 09:54 PM

I am going to sound really outrageous especially as I know little about these things but look hard at the snake and I am sure is has curved pincers at the mouth and the over all look is one of a centipede or millipede insect. I also believe that dogs can be auspicious animals in many parts of the world. These symbols could be saying I can hunt and find you like a dog and ferociously devour you like the millipede. I think we have seen dogs on other S,E,A weapons.

Edit, the so called Naga also has antennae so if I am reading the pictures correctly I am sure it is an insect. These pictures are not of a weapon, a Borneo? smoking pipe, the only S,E,A thing I have that shows the use of the dog as a symbol. Tim

VVV · 13th March 2006, 11:51 AM

Tim,

I also think the last symbol looks more like a centipede/millipede than a naga.
But I have seen other Moro naga symbols before that resembles this one.
And on the dog (or whatever animal it is?) it could be like you suggest.
But I don't know anything about how a Moro would interpret a dog in a symbolic way?
In Dayak cultures however dogs have a well-documented value as a symbol (aso).
Cato mentions horses as status symbols.
But I don't think it looks like a horse on my Barong?

Michael

Spunjer · 13th March 2006, 02:46 PM

nice barung.

the dog could be nothing more than his family pet, that's all

Tim Simmons · 13th March 2006, 05:55 PM

Sure its a dog it has even got the Dogs Bollocks

there I have said it out loud at last

. It could well be a pet dog but I do not think so. It is a bit girlie for a macho barong swinging warrior

.

Battara · 13th March 2006, 07:30 PM

Very nice puppy (the barung I mean

). Yes, it is not a centipede but a stylized naga - seen this type on other Moro things (including Ian's barung). the other - horse, aso (though rare on Moro)?

Thank you for the compliments - Ian's piece was a long project but one I'm glad I did.

VVV - you can email me at battara@hotmail.com and we can talk if you'd like.

Tim Simmons · 13th March 2006, 08:17 PM

Look folks how many horses carry their tails like this one, it could almost wag, even young children draw horses with some attempt at a long neck and long rounded head. Is it possible that you have seen Nagas where there is really a centipede? I agree one sees many stylised forms of serpent but go into your garden turn over a stone and one of these with pincers and antennae is likely to be there. It is so clearly drawn in my opinion, almost like a road sign. Tim

VVV · 13th March 2006, 08:49 PM

Having two kids I must agree with Tim on the dog vs horse issue.

On the naga/centipede I just remembered that when I was in the Visayas and had a couple of (new) blades done for me they asked if I wanted to have them specially prepared. The special preparation was mixing live poisonous spiders and centipides in the steel just before tempering it.
Is that something that is done in the south also?

Battara, thanks for the offer and I will mail you tomorrow.

Michael

migueldiaz · 2nd September 2011, 02:08 AM

Found these pics from a Spanish photography-travelogue book. The caption says objetos de adivinacion indonesia (Indonesia divination objects).

I thought the centipede and the two other critters look familiar ...

migueldiaz · 2nd September 2011, 02:10 AM

And I was also meaning to post these link_1 and link_2, which show these creatures also.

Indianajones · 2nd September 2011, 11:22 AM

Hello Michael, to my opinion the symbols depict
a Spanish fortress (enemy),
a kampilan as symbol for battle and
a dog, which is also a symbol for alertness (aside from being a pet).
The naga/wormlike symbol is actually a centipede which are feared for their painfull sting (feels like being stung with a blade)! This centipede symbol is actually also used in the north sometimes engraved on Headaxe blades.

Best, Wouter

10th March 2006, 10:30 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Talismanic inscriptions on a Barong I hope some of the Moro experts can help with explaining the signs on this Barong? As I understand it's a double edged Shandigan? - The Ring of Solomon I recognise but what's the "cross tongue" below it? - Is it a dog or something else depicted closest to the tip? - Is it a naga or a centipede at the other side of the blade? - And what's the meaning of the symbols? All comments appreciated. Michael Attached Images

10th March 2006, 10:40 AM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Here is a close up of the blade of the Barong from the seller. One day maybe I will learn how to take better pictures... Michael Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 10th March 2006 at 02:43 PM.

10th March 2006, 12:40 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks! Michael Last edited by VVV; 10th March 2006 at 12:53 PM.

10th March 2006, 11:22 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,203	Rare find Michael: Thanks very much for showing this beautiful barung. In my experience it is rare to find extensive inlaid work on the blade of a barung. I have one example of a high end barung with inlaid brass designs -- our fellow Forumite, Battara, did an excellent restoration of that barung and there may still be pictures on this site. Other than my example, I don't recall more than a couple other barung that I have seen with inlaid designs. Ian. Here is the link to that thread on the old web site. Pictures are shown before and after restoration. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002259.html Last edited by Ian; 10th March 2006 at 11:31 PM. Reason: Added link to old thread

12th March 2006, 09:54 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I am going to sound really outrageous especially as I know little about these things but look hard at the snake and I am sure is has curved pincers at the mouth and the over all look is one of a centipede or millipede insect. I also believe that dogs can be auspicious animals in many parts of the world. These symbols could be saying I can hunt and find you like a dog and ferociously devour you like the millipede. I think we have seen dogs on other S,E,A weapons. Edit, the so called Naga also has antennae so if I am reading the pictures correctly I am sure it is an insect. These pictures are not of a weapon, a Borneo? smoking pipe, the only S,E,A thing I have that shows the use of the dog as a symbol. Tim Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 12th March 2006 at 10:22 PM.

10th March 2006, 12:28 PM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hey, this barong looks mighty familiar!!!!! Fantastic catch!

10th March 2006, 02:26 PM	#5
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	With that tag, I guess it's a giveaway from which auction... The second picture, it might be "Dhu'l Faqar", the holy sword of Islam. Refer to this thread for details on this sword... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1923

10th March 2006, 02:37 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am not a collector or enthusiast of Moro swords, so please give me a slack. The undulating snake with transverse lines reminds me of Persian motives. Going totally on a limb, is it possible that the dog is a local "transcription" of a famous Passau mark? Many local blades from the Caucasus ("ters maimal")to E.Africa carried fake Passau marks as a testament to their quality. Would it be possible that the maker of this Barong just went overboard and marked his creation with marks from all the best swords he knew: Passau, Persian and Zulfikar just as an equivalent of "Wow, look at it!" And indeed, it is a very, very well made blade, something to be proud of.

10th March 2006, 02:42 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Alam Shah, Thanks for solving one of the symbols. And I have removed the tag picture in my post above after "discreet" hints from the Singapore group And thanks to Ariel for your comments. I am not that familiar with weapons from those areas so I have to do some research on your suggestions. Michael

11th March 2006, 12:20 AM	#9
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Ian, Thanks for sharing pictures of your great Barong! And a fantastic work Battara! A pity the geographical distance between us is so big. I would love to have some of my weapons restored like that. Unfortunately I would probably have to pay half of the value just to bring them in to US and then back to Europe again. Or spend a week in Customs filling out papers Michael

12th March 2006, 05:59 PM	#10
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,005	What a beauty. Congrats!

12th March 2006, 06:29 PM	#11
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Kino, Isn't there any forum member who recognise the "dog" and the "naga" symbols from a Moro perspective? Michael

13th March 2006, 11:51 AM	#13
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Tim, I also think the last symbol looks more like a centipede/millipede than a naga. But I have seen other Moro naga symbols before that resembles this one. And on the dog (or whatever animal it is?) it could be like you suggest. But I don't know anything about how a Moro would interpret a dog in a symbolic way? In Dayak cultures however dogs have a well-documented value as a symbol (aso). Cato mentions horses as status symbols. But I don't think it looks like a horse on my Barong? Michael

13th March 2006, 02:46 PM	#14
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	nice barung. the dog could be nothing more than his family pet, that's all

13th March 2006, 05:55 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Sure its a dog it has even got the Dogs Bollocks there I have said it out loud at last . It could well be a pet dog but I do not think so. It is a bit girlie for a macho barong swinging warrior .

13th March 2006, 07:30 PM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Very nice puppy (the barung I mean ). Yes, it is not a centipede but a stylized naga - seen this type on other Moro things (including Ian's barung). the other - horse, aso (though rare on Moro)? Thank you for the compliments - Ian's piece was a long project but one I'm glad I did. VVV - you can email me at battara@hotmail.com and we can talk if you'd like.

13th March 2006, 08:17 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Look folks how many horses carry their tails like this one, it could almost wag, even young children draw horses with some attempt at a long neck and long rounded head. Is it possible that you have seen Nagas where there is really a centipede? I agree one sees many stylised forms of serpent but go into your garden turn over a stone and one of these with pincers and antennae is likely to be there. It is so clearly drawn in my opinion, almost like a road sign. Tim

13th March 2006, 08:49 PM	#18
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Having two kids I must agree with Tim on the dog vs horse issue. On the naga/centipede I just remembered that when I was in the Visayas and had a couple of (new) blades done for me they asked if I wanted to have them specially prepared. The special preparation was mixing live poisonous spiders and centipides in the steel just before tempering it. Is that something that is done in the south also? Battara, thanks for the offer and I will mail you tomorrow. Michael

2nd September 2011, 02:08 AM	#19
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Found these pics from a Spanish photography-travelogue book. The caption says objetos de adivinacion indonesia (Indonesia divination objects). I thought the centipede and the two other critters look familiar ... Attached Images

2nd September 2011, 02:10 AM	#20
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	And I was also meaning to post these link_1 and link_2, which show these creatures also.

2nd September 2011, 11:22 AM	#21
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hello Michael, to my opinion the symbols depict a Spanish fortress (enemy), a kampilan as symbol for battle and a dog, which is also a symbol for alertness (aside from being a pet). The naga/wormlike symbol is actually a centipede which are feared for their painfull sting (feels like being stung with a blade)! This centipede symbol is actually also used in the north sometimes engraved on Headaxe blades. Best, Wouter