Bedouin Sabre

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2017, 05:27 PM

LOL, Wayne I think the guy in #7 has a piece of spinach in his teeth!
I agree with Ibrahiim, it does seem that Bedouin in most regions inherently use whatever means opportune to secure or carry their weapons. I don't think there are any specific standards or guidelines for such circumstances.

Kubur seems on track with the area of the scabbard which may have had some sort of suspension ring element as it would seem this rather ornate refurbishing with filigree decoration would correspond to that.

The basic hilt shape is what seems to have been generally held as either a favored Sinai or Palestinian classified form, but it would be hard to say, especially in more recent times where the boundaries and traditional forms have so diffused.

The guardless hilt, like many forms of such character seems to approximate the shashka in concept, but like Bukharen sabres and others, are not related to that group of weapons. The closest element to them would be the Caucasian and European blades which often circulated for generations in the Arab spheres.

Unusual to see this kind of filigree decoration on Bedouin pieces as far as I recall in discussions here. Possibly suggests more Arabian regions from Hejaz, Yemen, Oman?

kronckew · 15th August 2017, 06:55 PM

i managed to get an expanded version of a section of the blade from a higher resolution photo. there does appear to be some worn engraving or etching evident in the fullering area, but the yellow metal band at the front of the handle, and by inference, the similar chape looks more like it was 'decorated' with pointillist impressions from a nail point

. could all be some open filigree tho, it's a bit blurry. will know more after arrival. (hopefully it will be)

p.s. - no.7: Blackadder's personal assistant, Baldrick, can't afford spinach. he can't afford a surname either. he does however grow turnips. usually in the dirt accumulated behind his ears and in other crevasses best not mentioned. he does however, have a cunning plan. for those from outside the UK, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzHn2H2V8N4 for more information.

p.p.s. : one of the eight royal ravens who live permanently at the tower of london is named Baldrick.

ariel · 16th August 2017, 04:27 AM

Artzi Yarom once mentioned that he had seen similar sabres with Kilij blades.
I am not so lucky: two of mine carry European regulation blades and another one sports a local Arabian one.

We call them "Sinai/Negev", but let's not forget that they are first and foremost Beduin who did not give a hoot about geography in general and borders in particular. The only thing that cared about was (and still is) enough food and water for their camels and beloved black goats. Thus, I would not be surprised to find them all over the area, from Suez to Damascus and from the Mediterranean to the eastern border of Jordan and beyond.

The pattern of these sabers is a classic example of a purely ergonomical and cheaply-produced weapons with a parallel development in similarly poor and warlike societies.

Check ritual swords from Kairuan, Sardinian Leppa and sabers of Balkan Kraishniks. No guards, identical handles. Nothing fancy , but comfortable to hold and will do the job .

broadaxe · 18th August 2017, 09:47 PM

I collect these, and to my knowledge this form is the southern type, indeed from the Sinai, Negev an up to Jerusalem latitude, more or less. The northern type is fitted with a similar blade (or, whatever blade that came on the way), and has a Syrian shamshir-style hilt.
The preferred blade, however, on that southern type was European-made trade blade, mostly German. Those trade blades are of various qualities, but in general are better than the local imitation blades which are thicker, heavier and not so nice to the eye.
Recent info claims there is still one swordmaker who lives and produces such sabers in Gaza, fitted with grey plastic grips (I've seen shabriyyas with such handles).
In my collection I have Badawi sabers with leather baldrics sewn to the sheath, sabers with similar 'field procedure', one made from Khevsurian sword, one from quadara, one from Turkish-Ottoman military cavalry saber, one from a broken British 1908 saber, one from an unidentified antique European (long)sword ...

kronckew · 24th August 2017, 04:06 PM

she arrived today. 5in. grip, 30in. blade 1 3/8 in. wide 3/16in. thick. slight distal taper to hatchet point. two fullers. balance point 10 in. in front of the grip. somewhat pointn heavy.

grip appears to be a dark wood or horn layered on a central slightly lighter/redder central layer. two steel rivets/pins hold it all together on the tang. brass band at front of grip is plain brass sheet, bunch of holes form a dot pattern on one side. sm. steel tack at top to pin it in place. appears there was a similar band at the hilt, also hole patterned on one side (you can see a 'ghost' color change where it once was). sm. tack that held it is still tere too.

blade forte is engraved with two fishes either side of a "4" figure, topped with the word EAGYPT and a leafed floral/star or flower pattern, both sides. (Eagypt appears to be the alternate generic eropean spelling to the english Egypt) looks like thism may have been a trade blade.

the wood scabbard is covered in what looks like thin goatskin that has had a central rib threaded thru it rather than sewn with a fibre or hair. see photo. the upper section is thicker brown leather sewn with wire helix much like turkish scabbards. see photo. a much better cover than the rest. the 'drag' is a whitish metal rather crudely crinkled and bashed into shape, soldered seam. the end is actually open, showing the wood end, almost like the metal wore off. the crumpled band joining the two different leather sections, as is the crumpled section separating the drag from the goatskin, is actually a wrap if goatskin things, i assume to anchor the missing baldric.

weight w/o scabbad 656 gm.(01.45 lb. or 23.14 oz.)

kronckew · 24th August 2017, 04:07 PM

more photos

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th August 2017, 04:31 PM

[QUOTE=kronckew]

~blade forte is engraved with two fishes either side of a "4" figure, topped with the word EAGYPT and a leafed floral/star or flower pattern, both sides. (Eagypt appears to be the alternate generic eropean spelling to the english Egypt) looks like thism may have been a trade blade.

Salaams kronckew ~About pictures 3 4 and 5 above ...Could this be a local inscription done after a fashionable European inscription and roughly making an effort to inscribe two birds alongside a Talismanic 4 like the sword below and refered to at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=9&pp=30

In terms of possible copy cat design inscription see also http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/horn-...ver-decoration for a North African Nimcha.(sold).. Moroccan... in the same style but accurately executed indicating that the pattern would have probably been known as far east as Egypt thus the bridge is there between styles of weapon and surface design.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

kronckew · 24th August 2017, 04:56 PM

thanks, they could be 'birds' in lieu of beaked 'fish' or dolphins.

the '4' on the other side is the mirror image, a backwards '4'.

15th August 2017, 06:55 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	i managed to get an expanded version of a section of the blade from a higher resolution photo. there does appear to be some worn engraving or etching evident in the fullering area, but the yellow metal band at the front of the handle, and by inference, the similar chape looks more like it was 'decorated' with pointillist impressions from a nail point . could all be some open filigree tho, it's a bit blurry. will know more after arrival. (hopefully it will be) p.s. - no.7: Blackadder's personal assistant, Baldrick, can't afford spinach. he can't afford a surname either. he does however grow turnips. usually in the dirt accumulated behind his ears and in other crevasses best not mentioned. he does however, have a cunning plan. for those from outside the UK, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzHn2H2V8N4 for more information. p.p.s. : one of the eight royal ravens who live permanently at the tower of london is named Baldrick. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 15th August 2017 at 07:12 PM.

24th August 2017, 04:06 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	she arrived today. 5in. grip, 30in. blade 1 3/8 in. wide 3/16in. thick. slight distal taper to hatchet point. two fullers. balance point 10 in. in front of the grip. somewhat pointn heavy. grip appears to be a dark wood or horn layered on a central slightly lighter/redder central layer. two steel rivets/pins hold it all together on the tang. brass band at front of grip is plain brass sheet, bunch of holes form a dot pattern on one side. sm. steel tack at top to pin it in place. appears there was a similar band at the hilt, also hole patterned on one side (you can see a 'ghost' color change where it once was). sm. tack that held it is still tere too. blade forte is engraved with two fishes either side of a "4" figure, topped with the word EAGYPT and a leafed floral/star or flower pattern, both sides. (Eagypt appears to be the alternate generic eropean spelling to the english Egypt) looks like thism may have been a trade blade. the wood scabbard is covered in what looks like thin goatskin that has had a central rib threaded thru it rather than sewn with a fibre or hair. see photo. the upper section is thicker brown leather sewn with wire helix much like turkish scabbards. see photo. a much better cover than the rest. the 'drag' is a whitish metal rather crudely crinkled and bashed into shape, soldered seam. the end is actually open, showing the wood end, almost like the metal wore off. the crumpled band joining the two different leather sections, as is the crumpled section separating the drag from the goatskin, is actually a wrap if goatskin things, i assume to anchor the missing baldric. weight w/o scabbad 656 gm.(01.45 lb. or 23.14 oz.) Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 24th August 2017 at 04:22 PM.

24th August 2017, 04:07 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	more photos Attached Images

24th August 2017, 04:56 PM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	thanks, they could be 'birds' in lieu of beaked 'fish' or dolphins. the '4' on the other side is the mirror image, a backwards '4'. Last edited by kronckew; 24th August 2017 at 05:11 PM.

15th August 2017, 05:27 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	LOL, Wayne I think the guy in #7 has a piece of spinach in his teeth! I agree with Ibrahiim, it does seem that Bedouin in most regions inherently use whatever means opportune to secure or carry their weapons. I don't think there are any specific standards or guidelines for such circumstances. Kubur seems on track with the area of the scabbard which may have had some sort of suspension ring element as it would seem this rather ornate refurbishing with filigree decoration would correspond to that. The basic hilt shape is what seems to have been generally held as either a favored Sinai or Palestinian classified form, but it would be hard to say, especially in more recent times where the boundaries and traditional forms have so diffused. The guardless hilt, like many forms of such character seems to approximate the shashka in concept, but like Bukharen sabres and others, are not related to that group of weapons. The closest element to them would be the Caucasian and European blades which often circulated for generations in the Arab spheres. Unusual to see this kind of filigree decoration on Bedouin pieces as far as I recall in discussions here. Possibly suggests more Arabian regions from Hejaz, Yemen, Oman?

16th August 2017, 04:27 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Artzi Yarom once mentioned that he had seen similar sabres with Kilij blades. I am not so lucky: two of mine carry European regulation blades and another one sports a local Arabian one. We call them "Sinai/Negev", but let's not forget that they are first and foremost Beduin who did not give a hoot about geography in general and borders in particular. The only thing that cared about was (and still is) enough food and water for their camels and beloved black goats. Thus, I would not be surprised to find them all over the area, from Suez to Damascus and from the Mediterranean to the eastern border of Jordan and beyond. The pattern of these sabers is a classic example of a purely ergonomical and cheaply-produced weapons with a parallel development in similarly poor and warlike societies. Check ritual swords from Kairuan, Sardinian Leppa and sabers of Balkan Kraishniks. No guards, identical handles. Nothing fancy , but comfortable to hold and will do the job .

18th August 2017, 09:47 PM	#4
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	I collect these, and to my knowledge this form is the southern type, indeed from the Sinai, Negev an up to Jerusalem latitude, more or less. The northern type is fitted with a similar blade (or, whatever blade that came on the way), and has a Syrian shamshir-style hilt. The preferred blade, however, on that southern type was European-made trade blade, mostly German. Those trade blades are of various qualities, but in general are better than the local imitation blades which are thicker, heavier and not so nice to the eye. Recent info claims there is still one swordmaker who lives and produces such sabers in Gaza, fitted with grey plastic grips (I've seen shabriyyas with such handles). In my collection I have Badawi sabers with leather baldrics sewn to the sheath, sabers with similar 'field procedure', one made from Khevsurian sword, one from quadara, one from Turkish-Ottoman military cavalry saber, one from a broken British 1908 saber, one from an unidentified antique European (long)sword ...

24th August 2017, 04:31 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	[QUOTE=kronckew] ~blade forte is engraved with two fishes either side of a "4" figure, topped with the word EAGYPT and a leafed floral/star or flower pattern, both sides. (Eagypt appears to be the alternate generic eropean spelling to the english Egypt) looks like thism may have been a trade blade. Salaams kronckew ~About pictures 3 4 and 5 above ...Could this be a local inscription done after a fashionable European inscription and roughly making an effort to inscribe two birds alongside a Talismanic 4 like the sword below and refered to at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=9&pp=30 In terms of possible copy cat design inscription see also http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/horn-...ver-decoration for a North African Nimcha.(sold).. Moroccan... in the same style but accurately executed indicating that the pattern would have probably been known as far east as Egypt thus the bridge is there between styles of weapon and surface design. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 24th August 2017 at 04:53 PM.