Gustav's Discovery

Johan van Zyl · 15th August 2017, 01:29 PM

Well, I must say this: that these sentiments of yours should be regarded as required reading by all new and not so old keris "students". Keris 101, if I may call it that. I thank you warmly for your efforts to instill this insight into our members. I especially admire your patience. I regret that I did not have such patience as a lecturer. Some of my students wanted me to lower my standards so that they need not study so hard. Some would request a remark to get them an extra mark to help them come into the running for a re-examination. I tell them: "You already know so little; you want me to help you know even less?" Lecturing sometimes became a laugh a minute though: In Afrikaans we have the word for "cow udder", which, when you misspel the word by one vowel, it becomes "chicken egg". I warned my students that I would negatively mark them if they should write chicken egg where they mean cow udder! Yes, keep the standard high, I agree, and this also goes for our keris knowledge.

Still, I love it when a ricikan like in the pic above is discussed and members tell what they see and understand.

(I can't think what a "kanyut" could be - but I shudder at the possibilities!)

Johan van Zyl · 17th August 2017, 08:21 AM

Looks like this thread has drawn to a close. I also need to withdraw then, but there is one aspect still hanging in the air, which I request Alan to solve for me, if you would be so kind. Concerning the keris pictured in post #41, you wrote: "The keris you are now inquiring about is probably classifiable as Pajajaran, this places it as west Jawa, into Sunda. The greneng is not the typical Javanese greneng we are accustomed to, and the element that takes the place of the kanyut is not nameable under present convention."

How do I understand "classifiable as Pajajaran" in this case? AFAIK, Pajajaran is a tangguh, which is a 12th century category: the estimated age in which a keris was made. You cannot mean the specific keris in question is that old, so I am thinking there is another explanation of your choice of words, perhaps the fortified capital city of the Sunda kingdom? Please advise, and I thank you in advance for your patience.

Johan.

Jean · 17th August 2017, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

Looks like this thread has drawn to a close. I also need to withdraw then, but there is one aspect still hanging in the air, which I request Alan to solve for me, if you would be so kind. Concerning the keris pictured in post #41, you wrote: "The keris you are now inquiring about is probably classifiable as Pajajaran, this places it as west Jawa, into Sunda. The greneng is not the typical Javanese greneng we are accustomed to, and the element that takes the place of the kanyut is not nameable under present convention."

How do I understand "classifiable as Pajajaran" in this case? AFAIK, Pajajaran is a tangguh, which is a 12th century category: the estimated age in which a keris was made. You cannot mean the specific keris in question is that old, so I am thinking there is another explanation of your choice of words, perhaps the fortified capital city of the Sunda kingdom? Please advise, and I thank you in advance for your patience.

Johan.

Johan, I advise you to carefully read the numerous threads about the tangguh classification and its limitations, and the kanyut is simply the tip of the ganja (see post# 9 from Alan).
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 17th August 2017, 09:26 AM

Johan, regrettably the diagrams in my previous posts are not very clear, they're OK if you know what you are looking for, but if you do not, they can be confusing.

The kanyut is the second last named part before the extreme end of the greneng, it is the part that looks like the decline of a hill, the last part is the buntut mimi, which viewed from above becomes the buntut urang.

There has been extensive discussion on tangguh over years in this forum. Different people think about it in different ways. The best way for a collector who is outside the heart of the keris world in Central Jawa to think about it is that the names are simply classifications. Names associated with old eras will refer to old keris, names associated with recent eras will refer to more recent keris, but it is best not to think of the name of the classification as always inferring an age for the keris. With younger keris, say, after mid-17th century, there can be a grain of accuracy in a link between name and era, but in older keris not a lot of people will accept that the tangguh name really links to the age of the keris, but it is likely that the name will link to a geographic location.

EDIT

This might be useful Johan:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/keristangguh.html

drdavid · 18th August 2017, 07:20 AM

This is just a thought, and allowing that nothing is cast in stone when 'reading' a keris, is it possible that the feature identified in Gustav's examples is a representation of Siwa's trisula and hence a continuation of the Shivatic notation.
cheers
DrD

A. G. Maisey · 18th August 2017, 07:52 AM

Yes David, in the ones that look more recent this could be a possibility, especially since the keris itself is representative of Siwa, however, when we look at what appears to be the earliest representation of this triple element (Gustav's first example) it would take a very big stretch of imagination to turn that into a trisula

Johan van Zyl · 18th August 2017, 08:57 AM

I'm sure I was not the only one who gained knowledge & insight through this thread, so thank you on behalf of all those, to Alan and the other "old hands" who frequently are asked to answer sticky questions from members, some of whom demand "black-or-white" answers! Of course it has become clear that everything pertaining to the keris as a collector's item is not all that cut and dried. It remains, however, to be discussed further and more deeply, and legitimate conclusions drawn from these discussions.

Reading up widely on matters keris, we have all found to our confusion that there are many statements made concerning the keris, and many of these must be dismissed with disdain. So it is up to us as collectors to sift all these notions to get at the truth. Long live Keris Warung Kopi!

15th August 2017, 01:29 PM	#1
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Well, I must say this: that these sentiments of yours should be regarded as required reading by all new and not so old keris "students". Keris 101, if I may call it that. I thank you warmly for your efforts to instill this insight into our members. I especially admire your patience. I regret that I did not have such patience as a lecturer. Some of my students wanted me to lower my standards so that they need not study so hard. Some would request a remark to get them an extra mark to help them come into the running for a re-examination. I tell them: "You already know so little; you want me to help you know even less?" Lecturing sometimes became a laugh a minute though: In Afrikaans we have the word for "cow udder", which, when you misspel the word by one vowel, it becomes "chicken egg". I warned my students that I would negatively mark them if they should write chicken egg where they mean cow udder! Yes, keep the standard high, I agree, and this also goes for our keris knowledge. Still, I love it when a ricikan like in the pic above is discussed and members tell what they see and understand. (I can't think what a "kanyut" could be - but I shudder at the possibilities!) Last edited by Johan van Zyl; 15th August 2017 at 01:45 PM.

17th August 2017, 08:21 AM	#2
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Looks like this thread has drawn to a close. I also need to withdraw then, but there is one aspect still hanging in the air, which I request Alan to solve for me, if you would be so kind. Concerning the keris pictured in post #41, you wrote: "The keris you are now inquiring about is probably classifiable as Pajajaran, this places it as west Jawa, into Sunda. The greneng is not the typical Javanese greneng we are accustomed to, and the element that takes the place of the kanyut is not nameable under present convention." How do I understand "classifiable as Pajajaran" in this case? AFAIK, Pajajaran is a tangguh, which is a 12th century category: the estimated age in which a keris was made. You cannot mean the specific keris in question is that old, so I am thinking there is another explanation of your choice of words, perhaps the fortified capital city of the Sunda kingdom? Please advise, and I thank you in advance for your patience. Johan.

17th August 2017, 09:26 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Johan, regrettably the diagrams in my previous posts are not very clear, they're OK if you know what you are looking for, but if you do not, they can be confusing. The kanyut is the second last named part before the extreme end of the greneng, it is the part that looks like the decline of a hill, the last part is the buntut mimi, which viewed from above becomes the buntut urang. There has been extensive discussion on tangguh over years in this forum. Different people think about it in different ways. The best way for a collector who is outside the heart of the keris world in Central Jawa to think about it is that the names are simply classifications. Names associated with old eras will refer to old keris, names associated with recent eras will refer to more recent keris, but it is best not to think of the name of the classification as always inferring an age for the keris. With younger keris, say, after mid-17th century, there can be a grain of accuracy in a link between name and era, but in older keris not a lot of people will accept that the tangguh name really links to the age of the keris, but it is likely that the name will link to a geographic location. EDIT This might be useful Johan:- http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/keristangguh.html Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 18th August 2017 at 12:06 AM. Reason: http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/keristangguh.html

18th August 2017, 07:20 AM	#5
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	This is just a thought, and allowing that nothing is cast in stone when 'reading' a keris, is it possible that the feature identified in Gustav's examples is a representation of Siwa's trisula and hence a continuation of the Shivatic notation. cheers DrD

18th August 2017, 07:52 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Yes David, in the ones that look more recent this could be a possibility, especially since the keris itself is representative of Siwa, however, when we look at what appears to be the earliest representation of this triple element (Gustav's first example) it would take a very big stretch of imagination to turn that into a trisula

18th August 2017, 08:57 AM	#7
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	I'm sure I was not the only one who gained knowledge & insight through this thread, so thank you on behalf of all those, to Alan and the other "old hands" who frequently are asked to answer sticky questions from members, some of whom demand "black-or-white" answers! Of course it has become clear that everything pertaining to the keris as a collector's item is not all that cut and dried. It remains, however, to be discussed further and more deeply, and legitimate conclusions drawn from these discussions. Reading up widely on matters keris, we have all found to our confusion that there are many statements made concerning the keris, and many of these must be dismissed with disdain. So it is up to us as collectors to sift all these notions to get at the truth. Long live Keris Warung Kopi!