Gustav's Discovery

Johan van Zyl · 12th August 2017, 10:14 AM

So, looking once more at the beautiful old Penn Museum keris in post #31 above, and reading up on all that has been said, I am starting to wonder if that three-pronged Gustav-element maybe still is around, but has been corrupted to such an extent through time that it is not easily recogniseable anymore? Please see the greneng on my Java keris and note the element on the far end of the gonjo, next to the ron dha (to the left of it, at the very end). Recall that the two "wings" on the sides of the thingil in the Gustav-element are not mirror images of one another; they are different. On my keris I think I see the same element: there's the thingil in the centre, and what remains of two side-prongs which slant differently.

I probably am "seeing things" because it is what I WANT to see, but I mention this for any comment you might want to make, even if it is "Whoa, boy!"

Johan

kai · 12th August 2017, 01:16 PM

Hello Johan,

Quote:

I probably am "seeing things" because it is what I WANT to see

No worries, at this brainstorming stage all comments may help to spur our thinking. I have been trying to look into this in more detail but still need more time to come up with something reasonable, hopefully.

I guess the part you're highlighting is not an offspring of Gustav's element: The main difference seems to be the wide, rounded gaps (compared to the narrow and acute gaps with GE). I don't think that there's a missing link that will bridge this gap...

We have several clues that may help to verify any working hypothesis:
1. Similar shape of the parts of the element? (Including evolutionary links for any changes.)
2. Positional information - is placement/function basically the same?
3. Rhythm (or language) - does the order of the greneng appear to be correct (or does the hypothesized meaning make any sense)?

It is very possible that the elements (or their parts) do change over time - we should be able to trace them back to the original element though to make a compelling case IMHO.

Regards,
Kai

Johan van Zyl · 14th August 2017, 08:31 AM

Thank you Kai!

One last uncertainty which is still in my mind while we are on this topic of the greneng, is: how do we differentiate between a greneng element and PART of a greneng element? (You will recall the Gustav element actually consists of three parts - it was described as the "three-pronged element").

While the pic of the Java keris is still directly above, may I use it as an example? As far as I can make out, that greneng has only three elements. Reading from right to left (top to bottom), I see a ron dha on the blade, then another ron dha on the gonjo, and then ONE last element. I am asking if any of you in the know agree with me, or do you discern more than these three elements on this keris?

Johan

A. G. Maisey · 14th August 2017, 01:56 PM

Johan, there are a number of earlier posts in this thread that identify elements of a greneng. I think I probably posted most of them, and I did this to try to make the point that the entire subject is confused and full of contradiction.

The keris you are now inquiring about is probably classifiable as Pajajaran, this places it as west Jawa, into Sunda. The greneng is not the typical Javanese greneng we are accustomed to, and the element that takes the place of the kanyut is not nameable under present convention.

However, having seen the way this idiocy works, I am sure that some people would not have much difficulty in giving every pimple in the sorsoran, either accidental or intentional, a long complicated totally meaningless name --- and they still would not understand anything at all about what they were looking at.

12th August 2017, 10:14 AM	#1
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	So, looking once more at the beautiful old Penn Museum keris in post #31 above, and reading up on all that has been said, I am starting to wonder if that three-pronged Gustav-element maybe still is around, but has been corrupted to such an extent through time that it is not easily recogniseable anymore? Please see the greneng on my Java keris and note the element on the far end of the gonjo, next to the ron dha (to the left of it, at the very end). Recall that the two "wings" on the sides of the thingil in the Gustav-element are not mirror images of one another; they are different. On my keris I think I see the same element: there's the thingil in the centre, and what remains of two side-prongs which slant differently. I probably am "seeing things" because it is what I WANT to see, but I mention this for any comment you might want to make, even if it is "Whoa, boy!" Johan Attached Images

14th August 2017, 08:31 AM	#3
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Thank you Kai! One last uncertainty which is still in my mind while we are on this topic of the greneng, is: how do we differentiate between a greneng element and PART of a greneng element? (You will recall the Gustav element actually consists of three parts - it was described as the "three-pronged element"). While the pic of the Java keris is still directly above, may I use it as an example? As far as I can make out, that greneng has only three elements. Reading from right to left (top to bottom), I see a ron dha on the blade, then another ron dha on the gonjo, and then ONE last element. I am asking if any of you in the know agree with me, or do you discern more than these three elements on this keris? Johan

14th August 2017, 01:56 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Johan, there are a number of earlier posts in this thread that identify elements of a greneng. I think I probably posted most of them, and I did this to try to make the point that the entire subject is confused and full of contradiction. The keris you are now inquiring about is probably classifiable as Pajajaran, this places it as west Jawa, into Sunda. The greneng is not the typical Javanese greneng we are accustomed to, and the element that takes the place of the kanyut is not nameable under present convention. However, having seen the way this idiocy works, I am sure that some people would not have much difficulty in giving every pimple in the sorsoran, either accidental or intentional, a long complicated totally meaningless name --- and they still would not understand anything at all about what they were looking at.