Help to identify this African(?) knife

Bob A · 12th August 2017, 06:09 AM

Yemen was my first guess. I've seen silver work from Afghanistan and regions north of there that seemed similar, to my eye. Generally the stone most often seen from those northern regions is carnelian, though.
The elephant looks to be Indian, but who knows?

shayde78 · 15th August 2017, 06:22 PM

Thank you Bob and Stu.

The elephant does look more Indian than African, but making that distinction presumes a level of artistic accuracy that may not be warranted.

I am wondering if the 6-pointed star could provide some clues. I know there is some debate as to why this image appears on blades across cultures. The consensus seems to be it was used as a proofing mark in Europe, and was subsequently copied elsewhere to make lesser blades seem of higher quality. However, it seems to me that any Arabic blade after the 1940s would be unlikely to have this image. Do you think that is a fair claim? Although, the inscription (if my translation is accurate) suggests peaceful coexistence, so that could undermine my own assertion.

One more thing, I am attaching an image of what appears to be a coin on the sheath. It is 5-sided, but it may have been cut into that shape. Does this coin help with identifying?

Jim McDougall · 16th August 2017, 01:28 AM

I'm very much with Stu on this, and this seems to be likely something innovatively fashioned in Yemeni or Hadhramati regions. I would 'guess' low grade silver fabricating this pastiche, recalling other silver repousse hilts from many remounted sayf.
The demonstrably crude inscribed Arabic type script and the six point stars (star of Solomon, an Islamic symbol as well as other) seem intended to intimate a better quality blade. The elephant probably loosely intended to suggest Indian source for blade, as these were highly regarded in Arabia.
Most interesting piece from dynamic and intriguing regional circumstances of perhaps 60 or more years ago.
The star (of David, or Solomon) was used on British blades as a surround for a proof slug, begun by Wilkinson late 1850s, but contrary to suggestions never had Jewish nor Masonic connotation. It represents varied interpretation of transposed triangles, and was well known in very early Islamic contexts and often to signify quality and or other significant symbolism.

Coins are not a good indicator of date nor provenance on swords' elements or mounts as these were often used as decorative and talismanic devices regardless of their monetary value. Many coins such as thalers, pesos, and others were used on hilts as pommel cap decorations etc.

shayde78 · 16th August 2017, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I'm very much with Stu on this, and this seems to be likely something innovatively fashioned in Yemeni or Hadhramati regions. I would 'guess' low grade silver fabricating this pastiche, recalling other silver repousse hilts from many remounted sayf.
The demonstrably crude inscribed Arabic type script and the six point stars (star of Solomon, an Islamic symbol as well as other) seem intended to intimate a better quality blade. The elephant probably loosely intended to suggest Indian source for blade, as these were highly regarded in Arabia.
Most interesting piece from dynamic and intriguing regional circumstances of perhaps 60 or more years ago.
The star (of David, or Solomon) was used on British blades as a surround for a proof slug, begun by Wilkinson late 1850s, but contrary to suggestions never had Jewish nor Masonic connotation. It represents varied interpretation of transposed triangles, and was well known in very early Islamic contexts and often to signify quality and or other significant symbolism.

Coins are not a good indicator of date nor provenance on swords' elements or mounts as these were often used as decorative and talismanic devices regardless of their monetary value. Many coins such as thalers, pesos, and others were used on hilts as pommel cap decorations etc.

Jim,
As always, thank you for your informed feedback

I appreciate your (and Stu and Bob's) willingness to take the time to share your thoughts. I collect so that I may learn, and the members of this forum have proven to be great teachers.
Best,
-Rob

Ps- I'm still curious to hear more opinions and learn more about this piece....any pictures of something similar being worn?

Jim McDougall · 16th August 2017, 09:04 PM

You're most welcome Shayde, and I thank you for the opportunity to see this piece and offer my thoughts, which are of course only my opinion based on many previous experiences with similar items. As you note, the membership here are indeed great teachers, and we always learn together.

I look forward to hearing more from others who are interested and experienced in this field on this interesting item.

Bob A · 17th August 2017, 01:46 AM

It occurs to me that the leather backing of the scabbard is rather reminiscent of the jambiyyas from Yemen and Oman, which may be another pointer toward origin.

I speak from the very depths of lack of knowledge, of course.

ariel · 17th August 2017, 04:44 AM

I think the "coin" is dated " .368", if my eyes are still what they used to be ???? years ago:-)

If so, - 1948-1949. I think it fits well with the crispiness of incisions on the blade.

But Jim is correct: the "coin" could have been attached to older knife or might be older than the knife itself.

shayde78 · 17th August 2017, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

It occurs to me that the leather backing of the scabbard is rather reminiscent of the jambiyyas from Yemen and Oman, which may be another pointer toward origin.

I speak from the very depths of lack of knowledge, of course.

Agreed. I am attaching a picture of the original lot, of which this item was a part. It may help suggest an origin if the other pieces are easier to identify. There are three pieces; a Moroccan Koummya, a Jambiya, and this knife. The leather on the back of the piece in question does resemble the jambiya, but I was told the inscription is in a Moroccan/Algerian dialect...so somewhere in between?? Or not related at all, and the estate seller just lumped the 'pointy things' all in one lot.

15th August 2017, 06:22 PM	#2
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thank you Bob and Stu. The elephant does look more Indian than African, but making that distinction presumes a level of artistic accuracy that may not be warranted. I am wondering if the 6-pointed star could provide some clues. I know there is some debate as to why this image appears on blades across cultures. The consensus seems to be it was used as a proofing mark in Europe, and was subsequently copied elsewhere to make lesser blades seem of higher quality. However, it seems to me that any Arabic blade after the 1940s would be unlikely to have this image. Do you think that is a fair claim? Although, the inscription (if my translation is accurate) suggests peaceful coexistence, so that could undermine my own assertion. One more thing, I am attaching an image of what appears to be a coin on the sheath. It is 5-sided, but it may have been cut into that shape. Does this coin help with identifying? Attached Images

12th August 2017, 06:09 AM	#1
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 436	Yemen was my first guess. I've seen silver work from Afghanistan and regions north of there that seemed similar, to my eye. Generally the stone most often seen from those northern regions is carnelian, though. The elephant looks to be Indian, but who knows?

16th August 2017, 01:28 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I'm very much with Stu on this, and this seems to be likely something innovatively fashioned in Yemeni or Hadhramati regions. I would 'guess' low grade silver fabricating this pastiche, recalling other silver repousse hilts from many remounted sayf. The demonstrably crude inscribed Arabic type script and the six point stars (star of Solomon, an Islamic symbol as well as other) seem intended to intimate a better quality blade. The elephant probably loosely intended to suggest Indian source for blade, as these were highly regarded in Arabia. Most interesting piece from dynamic and intriguing regional circumstances of perhaps 60 or more years ago. The star (of David, or Solomon) was used on British blades as a surround for a proof slug, begun by Wilkinson late 1850s, but contrary to suggestions never had Jewish nor Masonic connotation. It represents varied interpretation of transposed triangles, and was well known in very early Islamic contexts and often to signify quality and or other significant symbolism. Coins are not a good indicator of date nor provenance on swords' elements or mounts as these were often used as decorative and talismanic devices regardless of their monetary value. Many coins such as thalers, pesos, and others were used on hilts as pommel cap decorations etc.

16th August 2017, 09:04 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	You're most welcome Shayde, and I thank you for the opportunity to see this piece and offer my thoughts, which are of course only my opinion based on many previous experiences with similar items. As you note, the membership here are indeed great teachers, and we always learn together. I look forward to hearing more from others who are interested and experienced in this field on this interesting item.

17th August 2017, 01:46 AM	#6
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 436	It occurs to me that the leather backing of the scabbard is rather reminiscent of the jambiyyas from Yemen and Oman, which may be another pointer toward origin. I speak from the very depths of lack of knowledge, of course.

17th August 2017, 04:44 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think the "coin" is dated " .368", if my eyes are still what they used to be ???? years ago:-) If so, - 1948-1949. I think it fits well with the crispiness of incisions on the blade. But Jim is correct: the "coin" could have been attached to older knife or might be older than the knife itself.