My first dharb for comment

Valjhun · 12th March 2006, 06:27 PM

Thank you all for the wonderfull debate

Andrew, I meant forged not folded, sorry. It is obviously hand made and there are some forging flaws to and it is not machine made blade nor it was cut out from a piece of steel.

How do I polish the blade?

PUFF · 13th March 2006, 07:51 AM

The blade and handle seems a bit strange too me. The round plate with pins in front of ferrule 's uncommon for Dahb. The rattan 's a little thicker than ordinary Darb. And I guessed that the handle might be reconstructed/restored by local maker. Pictures are not very clear but the little black wrapping just before and after rattan grip looks like rattan rings. Rings are Separated hand-made and put on the handle. Then black resinous glue was applied. This means the handle might be made 40+ years ago.

Like horn and tusk, hardwood 's not material for battle sword. The handle could be made for household usage.

May I have another picture for back part of the blade. One picture shows flat back profile with smoothen edges. Is s it tapered or just same thickness up to 3/4 of the blade? Although, the blade seems to be harden and need some polishing. The scratchs suggested that the steel 's fairly hard. I guessed that the material is either old leaf spring or medium carbon steel. IMHO, the blade was made in the post WWII era in Lampang (northern Thailand). It 's also possible that the blade was forged by a smith from another region (look carefully for a possible stamp on the blade) in the mid 20th cent. And the handle might be reconstructed by another maker.

Could you please post colse-up of black wrapping and more picture of back profile of the blade.

Ian · 13th March 2006, 05:18 PM

I've been slow to get to this one because the hilt is a little strange.

Going back to my own examples of N. Thai/Lao dharb, I found a similar example where the rattan had been wrapped (rather than plaited in rings) around the hilt. So I think this is an example of N. Thai or nearby Lao work.

The assembly of the hilt and blade of the sword above is probably not very old. The materials in the handle look recent. The blade may be older. The small metal plate, referred to already, attached by pins to the base of the hilt next to the blade is a feature seen on several recently made Thai dharb, and even on some higher grade, old examples. Not all that unusual. The blade is clearly in the style of recently made Thai dharb, although there are older examples (early 20th C and maybe late 19th C) with a similar blade profile.

I don't think this sword is a Cochin saber. The protruding piece of wood at the end of the hilt does resemble that style, but similar features can be found on Thai and Burmese examples also, especially when a terminal ferrule has been lost.

Attached below is a picture of two swords. The top one is Lao and the bottom one, which has a rattan wrap similar to the sword that started this discussion, is from Chiang Mai in northern Thailand. Incidentally, both of these swords have small metal plates at the end of the hilt adjacent to the blade.

Larger pictures of th Chiang Mai dharb and its hilt are shown. The bare wooden area of the hilt shows where the rattan has broken off and how the binding was attached with black pitch or a similar resin.

Ian.

Tim Simmons · 13th March 2006, 05:33 PM

Hello Puff,

I always thought these were of a common form and construction, many arriving in the UK between 1940s-1950s. Tim

Andrew · 14th March 2006, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Going back to my own examples of N. Thai/Lao dharb, I found a similar example where the rattan had been wrapped (rather than plaited in rings) around the hilt. So I think this is an example of N. Thai or nearby Lao work.

I agree, Ian. This rattan treatment is reminiscent of the scabbards on some "Montagnard" swords:

Quote:

I don't think this sword is a Cochin saber. The protruding piece of wood at the end of the hilt does resemble that style, but similar features can be found on Thai and Burmese examples also, especially when a terminal ferrule has been lost.

I don't think this is a Cochin saber, either. However, the distal end of the handle does remind me of one quite strongly. Enough so that I'm not entirely willing to abandon thoughts of Vietnamese influence.

I don't think the end of the handle is missing as we so often see. I believe this is an intentional feature, evidenced by the wrapped cord ferrules flanking the grip.

Valjhun · 13th March 2006, 05:37 PM

Thanksfor the info Puff, here are the photos.

Everything on that sword is verry quality made. The black wrapping is rope binding. The blade is quite thick -6mm. The blade is 56 cm long. Wideness: 4 cm at the widest point near the tip and 3 cm at the hilt. Overall lenght is 85 cm. I like thatone verry much and the handle is one of the more attractive I've seen on a non silver mounted dha, I'm not an expert thou.

From my point of view it is a great fighting weapon (I've chosen it in the home defence post

) Great balance and nice cutter. It feels verry good managing it. What do you mean by household use?

Mark · 13th March 2006, 06:44 PM

Puff asked one key question I had on my mind, namely the spine width. From the photo it appears fairly thick near the handle. How much does it taper in thickness toward the tip, and how quickly? It is typical to see a 1/3-1/2 cm thinkness to the blade near the handle, which narrows over about the first half of the length down to just a few millimeters. At the tip the thickness is usually little more than that of the edge itself. This is a very characteristic feature of dha/daab. It looks like yours has a pretty good taper.

I hesitated to make a comparison, but the only daab I have handled with this kind of a handle wrap is one of my own which was one made with a uniformly (more-or-less) thick blade, such as you would see in a nihon-to. My blade was clearly home-made and by someone who was not very well-informed about how one should be made -- a bad e-bay purchase

. The uniformly-thick blade makes it very tip-heavy, which is not correct for a daab (the POB on a dha/daab should be just a few inches in front of the grip). It also has the plate attached with four nails.

So, I am glad that Ian has seen others with this kind of wrapping which are "legitimate."

PS: I think the black wrapping on the grip is cord, not rattan, since it is twisted rather than braided.

Valjhun · 13th March 2006, 07:43 PM

The thickness is kind a uniform:
- 6mm at the hilt
- 5mm at the first 1/3
- 4mm at the second third
- 3mm is max
- again 4mm near the tip

Yes the wrapping is cord.

Tim, yours is verry similar, at least the wrapping, to one in my possesion wich is touristic piece I think. It has nothing to do compared with the other one in quality. pls refer to the fotos 2 and 3.

Ian, beautifull pieces!

I like thoose.

Another thing that I've forgot to mention. all the materials of the hilt seems old to me and the clear ratan binding was painted reddish brown sometime, there is still some little pieces of the laquer falling from it.

Titus Pullo · 13th March 2006, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

The thickness is kind a uniform:
- 6mm at the hilt
- 5mm at the first 1/3
- 4mm at the second third
- 3mm is max
- again 4mm near the tip

Yes the wrapping is cord.

Tim, yours is verry similar, at least the wrapping, to one in my possesion wich is touristic piece I think. It has nothing to do compared with the other one in quality. pls refer to the fotos 2 and 3.

Ian, beautifull pieces!

I like thoose.

Another thing that I've forgot to mention. all the materials of the hilt seems old to me and the clear ratan binding was painted reddish brown sometime, there is still some little pieces of the laquer falling from it.

The one I had swell in the middle, where the widest part of the sword is, that you cut someone (or something) with, instead of being flat like what I've seen on other daabs. Is that typical of Thai daab, I'm wondering?

Mark · 14th March 2006, 01:46 AM

Are you saying that the thickness of the blade was greater in the middle (when you look straight down at the edge, I mean)? I have never seen that in a daab. I have always seen them with a thick spine at the handle, some thicker than others, tapering quickly in the first 1/3 or so of the blade, then more gently to the tip.

I'd like to see photos of yours, if you still have it.

13th March 2006, 05:18 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,395	N. Thai perhaps I've been slow to get to this one because the hilt is a little strange. Going back to my own examples of N. Thai/Lao dharb, I found a similar example where the rattan had been wrapped (rather than plaited in rings) around the hilt. So I think this is an example of N. Thai or nearby Lao work. The assembly of the hilt and blade of the sword above is probably not very old. The materials in the handle look recent. The blade may be older. The small metal plate, referred to already, attached by pins to the base of the hilt next to the blade is a feature seen on several recently made Thai dharb, and even on some higher grade, old examples. Not all that unusual. The blade is clearly in the style of recently made Thai dharb, although there are older examples (early 20th C and maybe late 19th C) with a similar blade profile. I don't think this sword is a Cochin saber. The protruding piece of wood at the end of the hilt does resemble that style, but similar features can be found on Thai and Burmese examples also, especially when a terminal ferrule has been lost. Attached below is a picture of two swords. The top one is Lao and the bottom one, which has a rattan wrap similar to the sword that started this discussion, is from Chiang Mai in northern Thailand. Incidentally, both of these swords have small metal plates at the end of the hilt adjacent to the blade. Larger pictures of th Chiang Mai dharb and its hilt are shown. The bare wooden area of the hilt shows where the rattan has broken off and how the binding was attached with black pitch or a similar resin. Ian. Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 13th March 2006 at 05:42 PM. Reason: Added pictures

13th March 2006, 05:33 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Hello Puff, I always thought these were of a common form and construction, many arriving in the UK between 1940s-1950s. Tim Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 13th March 2006 at 07:19 PM.

13th March 2006, 05:37 PM	#6
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Thanksfor the info Puff, here are the photos. Everything on that sword is verry quality made. The black wrapping is rope binding. The blade is quite thick -6mm. The blade is 56 cm long. Wideness: 4 cm at the widest point near the tip and 3 cm at the hilt. Overall lenght is 85 cm. I like thatone verry much and the handle is one of the more attractive I've seen on a non silver mounted dha, I'm not an expert thou. From my point of view it is a great fighting weapon (I've chosen it in the home defence post ) Great balance and nice cutter. It feels verry good managing it. What do you mean by household use? Attached Images

13th March 2006, 07:43 PM	#8
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	The thickness is kind a uniform: - 6mm at the hilt - 5mm at the first 1/3 - 4mm at the second third - 3mm is max - again 4mm near the tip Yes the wrapping is cord. Tim, yours is verry similar, at least the wrapping, to one in my possesion wich is touristic piece I think. It has nothing to do compared with the other one in quality. pls refer to the fotos 2 and 3. Ian, beautifull pieces! I like thoose. Another thing that I've forgot to mention. all the materials of the hilt seems old to me and the clear ratan binding was painted reddish brown sometime, there is still some little pieces of the laquer falling from it. Attached Images

12th March 2006, 06:27 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Thank you all for the wonderfull debate Andrew, I meant forged not folded, sorry. It is obviously hand made and there are some forging flaws to and it is not machine made blade nor it was cut out from a piece of steel. How do I polish the blade?

13th March 2006, 07:51 AM	#2
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	The blade and handle seems a bit strange too me. The round plate with pins in front of ferrule 's uncommon for Dahb. The rattan 's a little thicker than ordinary Darb. And I guessed that the handle might be reconstructed/restored by local maker. Pictures are not very clear but the little black wrapping just before and after rattan grip looks like rattan rings. Rings are Separated hand-made and put on the handle. Then black resinous glue was applied. This means the handle might be made 40+ years ago. Like horn and tusk, hardwood 's not material for battle sword. The handle could be made for household usage. May I have another picture for back part of the blade. One picture shows flat back profile with smoothen edges. Is s it tapered or just same thickness up to 3/4 of the blade? Although, the blade seems to be harden and need some polishing. The scratchs suggested that the steel 's fairly hard. I guessed that the material is either old leaf spring or medium carbon steel. IMHO, the blade was made in the post WWII era in Lampang (northern Thailand). It 's also possible that the blade was forged by a smith from another region (look carefully for a possible stamp on the blade) in the mid 20th cent. And the handle might be reconstructed by another maker. Could you please post colse-up of black wrapping and more picture of back profile of the blade.

13th March 2006, 06:44 PM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Puff asked one key question I had on my mind, namely the spine width. From the photo it appears fairly thick near the handle. How much does it taper in thickness toward the tip, and how quickly? It is typical to see a 1/3-1/2 cm thinkness to the blade near the handle, which narrows over about the first half of the length down to just a few millimeters. At the tip the thickness is usually little more than that of the edge itself. This is a very characteristic feature of dha/daab. It looks like yours has a pretty good taper. I hesitated to make a comparison, but the only daab I have handled with this kind of a handle wrap is one of my own which was one made with a uniformly (more-or-less) thick blade, such as you would see in a nihon-to. My blade was clearly home-made and by someone who was not very well-informed about how one should be made -- a bad e-bay purchase . The uniformly-thick blade makes it very tip-heavy, which is not correct for a daab (the POB on a dha/daab should be just a few inches in front of the grip). It also has the plate attached with four nails. So, I am glad that Ian has seen others with this kind of wrapping which are "legitimate." PS: I think the black wrapping on the grip is cord, not rattan, since it is twisted rather than braided.

14th March 2006, 01:46 AM	#10
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Are you saying that the thickness of the blade was greater in the middle (when you look straight down at the edge, I mean)? I have never seen that in a daab. I have always seen them with a thick spine at the handle, some thicker than others, tapering quickly in the first 1/3 or so of the blade, then more gently to the tip. I'd like to see photos of yours, if you still have it.