Gustav's Discovery

[kai]

Sorry, I have uploaded figures according to the sequence, but somehow it comes out in random order.

After selecting the first pic, hit upload. Then the next, etc.

If uploaded separately, pics stay in sequence.

Regards,
Kai

[drdavid]

Dear experts
for those of us with less knowledge it would help greatly when you introduce a less common keris term if you can identify on a picture that element or at least give a brief description. For example in this discussion ri pandan is a new term to me and it is not on the illustration http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html that I use most frequently
thanks
Dr D

[A. G. Maisey]

Rasdan, I like your ideas. I'm sorry, but I need to think through the propositions you have put forward, this will take me a few days, so I cannot express any opinion right now. I'll get back to this in a few days.

David, here is an image that gives a bit more detail on the greneng. If you look at an assortment of other charts of the greneng, or of the full keris for that matter, you will probably see some terms used that differ, or are applied to different elements. This sort of confusion is not really all that uncommon in Javanese related contexts. My feeling on the matter is that Javanese language is essentially intended for personal communication, speech, face to face, when the language is used in a written form the ideas and expression seem not to be so tightly held together as in, say, English. We need to adjust.

The words "gunun" & "buntu mimi" have been clipped in reproduction, they should be :- "gunungan" & "buntut mimi".

This image is a crop from the drawing in the front of the Surakarta dhapur pakem.

EDIT, SECOND IMAGE

second image taken from KJ --- Haryoguritno.
Notice some variation?
If we look at a wide selection of these charts we will find a number of differences.
Try to be tolerant, this is the way Jawa works:- you think you understand something?
Forget it, things move and change all the time.Nothing is carved in stone except the ancient monumental works.

[rasdan]

Originally Posted by drdavid

For example in this discussion ri pandan is a new term to me and it is not on the illustration http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html that I use most frequently
thanks
Dr D

Sorry DrD, I am no expert, but ri pandan is the notch in the middle of the ron dha. In some cases, this notch becomes a bump. I have marked the ri pandan on Alm. Empu Suparman's diagram from Alan below.

Originally Posted by kai

However, its contours are usually different from the real ron dha

Hi Kai, in my eyes, I think this Dha actually resembles Pajajaran Ron Dha. The image below.

Originally Posted by kai

After selecting the first pic, hit upload. Then the next, etc.

Thanks Kai, I'll try that next time.

[drdavid]

Alan, Rasdan
thanks for your input, however you don't seem to agree which bit is the ri pandan
cheers
DrD

[rasdan]

Hi DrD, Alan,

It seems that I made a mistake here. I was using the diagram from Keris Jawa book below. Probably the label in that book was switched between the thingil and Ri pandan. I will address the notch/bump in the middle of the dha as thingil from now on. Sorry for the mistake.

I'll get back to this in a few days.

Ok Alan.

Edit:
Just saw Alan had attached the same image after I posted this, but I think I'll just leave the image here for reference of my post.

[rasdan]

Just to add a bit. If we look closely, at the keris diagram in Keris Jawa book, we can see a small Dha formation on top of the thingil (term used in that book) as I mentioned in my first post above.

This reminds me of the greneng for a Tilam Sari keris which probably includes a dha formation on the thingil followed with a wide and long dha. Image below.

[A. G. Maisey]

We crossed posts David.

My understanding is in accordance with what I was taught by Empu Suparman and agreed by Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, and understood by several of the Anak-Anak ASKI, it is also in agreement with descriptions of keris elements given in individual descriptions in the Surakarta Pakem.


My understanding is that the ri pandan is the substantial hooked part of the rondha, this is also the ri pandan when it appears as a single isolated element. The thingil is the small raised peak that is seen in the centre of the rondha.

The meaning of 'ri pandan' is "pandan thorn", the pandan is a plant that has thorns on the leaves of some varieties, those thorns frequently have a small hook. There are many varieties of pandan, the one that is used as a flavouring in food does not normally have hooks.

The meaning of "thingil" is "a small thing that stands above its surroundings". Actually, "thingil" is normally used in the form "thingil-thingil".

I believe my understanding is correct, as I have sometimes said:- in respect of keris books, especially Javanese keris books, people who write books are very good at writing books -----

[drdavid]

Alan, thank you for the clarification
This leads me to ask if I should consider the ron dha as containing the ri pandan and what ever name we give to the hook at the other end or just the curving edges (as in the script used to write aum) or possibly just the space with the thingil in the middle. Or all of the above.
cheers
DrDavid

[Jean]

Originally Posted by drdavid

Alan, thank you for the clarification
This leads me to ask if I should consider the ron dha as containing the ri pandan and what ever name we give to the hook at the other end or just the curving edges (as in the script used to write aum) or possibly just the space with the thingil in the middle. Or all of the above.
cheers
DrDavid

Good question David, what a confusion! And I would add:
. What is the difference between the ron dha nunut and ron dha besides their different location? (wadidang and ganja).
. What is the name of the hook/ thorn on top of the ron dha nunut, is it included in the ron dha nunut or not?
. Whenever the greneng is limited to a single protrusion like for dhapur Tilam Sari, it is called thingil.
Regards