Gustav's Discovery

rasdan · 4th August 2017, 03:25 PM

Hi everybody,

I am actually quite busy right now, but the attraction is too strong for me not to participate, so just a quick one. I am unsure if this makes sense or not. This is just a quick observation, so most likely it wont stand to close scrutiny.

I see the greneng on the kerises presented here in a slightly different way. To start with, IMHO earlier greneng started with a notched ri pandan. This notch was then eroded away and later pandai keris copied the eroded version creating a Dha with a “bump” version Ri Pandan. And to the extreme version, the Dha no longer have a Ri Pandan and it looks like the letter C.

Usually, Dha is placed after a thingil and is cut slightly lower than the thingil. What we are seeing on the keris posted here are probably the Dha with “bump” Ri pandan but were cut at the same level of the thingil and this makes it looks like it is an extra and wide thingil. This is probably a style used by the north coast keris makers. (Figure 1, 2 & 3)

There’s another variant that were normally on much later Javanese keris is that an extra dha were cut on top of the thingil. (Figure 3.1) And on much later Balinese keris the dha is at normal position and the “NorthCoast” higher Dha position gets modified into another thingil (Figure 5) or into another element (Figure 4) making it three elements.

I am unsure if keris in Figure 6 has an notched Dha in the middle or a gap. If it is a notched dha, then what I had said above is probably wrong assuming that the type of Dha used on a keris should be consistently shaped and unless keris in Figure 6 a slightly later Balinese keris.

Sorry if what I write doesn’t make sense.

p/s: Sorry, I have uploaded figures according to the sequence, but somehow it comes out in random order.

rasdan · 4th August 2017, 04:41 PM

By the way, probably this formation in front of the gandik is also a dha? If this is so, then we might have an explanation on the purpose of the lambe gajah.

kai · 4th August 2017, 07:35 PM

Quote:

By the way, probably this formation in front of the gandik is also a dha? If this is so, then we might have an explanation on the purpose of the lambe gajah.

Interesting thought, Rasdan. However, its contours are usually different from the real ron dha. Thus, I don't think it is the intended meaning.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 4th August 2017, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Sorry, I have uploaded figures according to the sequence, but somehow it comes out in random order.

After selecting the first pic, hit upload. Then the next, etc.

If uploaded separately, pics stay in sequence.

Regards,
Kai

drdavid · 4th August 2017, 10:49 PM

Dear experts
for those of us with less knowledge it would help greatly when you introduce a less common keris term if you can identify on a picture that element or at least give a brief description. For example in this discussion ri pandan is a new term to me and it is not on the illustration http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html that I use most frequently
thanks
Dr D

A. G. Maisey · 5th August 2017, 12:08 AM

Rasdan, I like your ideas. I'm sorry, but I need to think through the propositions you have put forward, this will take me a few days, so I cannot express any opinion right now. I'll get back to this in a few days.

David, here is an image that gives a bit more detail on the greneng. If you look at an assortment of other charts of the greneng, or of the full keris for that matter, you will probably see some terms used that differ, or are applied to different elements. This sort of confusion is not really all that uncommon in Javanese related contexts. My feeling on the matter is that Javanese language is essentially intended for personal communication, speech, face to face, when the language is used in a written form the ideas and expression seem not to be so tightly held together as in, say, English. We need to adjust.

The words "gunun" & "buntu mimi" have been clipped in reproduction, they should be :- "gunungan" & "buntut mimi".

This image is a crop from the drawing in the front of the Surakarta dhapur pakem.

EDIT, SECOND IMAGE

second image taken from KJ --- Haryoguritno.
Notice some variation?
If we look at a wide selection of these charts we will find a number of differences.
Try to be tolerant, this is the way Jawa works:- you think you understand something?
Forget it, things move and change all the time.Nothing is carved in stone except the ancient monumental works.

rasdan · 5th August 2017, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdavid

For example in this discussion ri pandan is a new term to me and it is not on the illustration http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html that I use most frequently
thanks
Dr D

Sorry DrD, I am no expert, but ri pandan is the notch in the middle of the ron dha. In some cases, this notch becomes a bump. I have marked the ri pandan on Alm. Empu Suparman's diagram from Alan below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

However, its contours are usually different from the real ron dha

Hi Kai, in my eyes, I think this Dha actually resembles Pajajaran Ron Dha. The image below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

After selecting the first pic, hit upload. Then the next, etc.

Thanks Kai, I'll try that next time.

drdavid · 5th August 2017, 12:21 AM

Alan, Rasdan
thanks for your input, however you don't seem to agree which bit is the ri pandan
cheers
DrD

rasdan · 5th August 2017, 12:33 AM

Hi DrD, Alan,

It seems that I made a mistake here. I was using the diagram from Keris Jawa book below. Probably the label in that book was switched between the thingil and Ri pandan. I will address the notch/bump in the middle of the dha as thingil from now on. Sorry for the mistake.

Quote:

I'll get back to this in a few days.

Ok Alan.

Edit:
Just saw Alan had attached the same image after I posted this, but I think I'll just leave the image here for reference of my post.

rasdan · 5th August 2017, 12:50 AM

Just to add a bit. If we look closely, at the keris diagram in Keris Jawa book, we can see a small Dha formation on top of the thingil (term used in that book) as I mentioned in my first post above.

This reminds me of the greneng for a Tilam Sari keris which probably includes a dha formation on the thingil followed with a wide and long dha. Image below.

A. G. Maisey · 5th August 2017, 01:13 AM

We crossed posts David.

My understanding is in accordance with what I was taught by Empu Suparman and agreed by Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, and understood by several of the Anak-Anak ASKI, it is also in agreement with descriptions of keris elements given in individual descriptions in the Surakarta Pakem.

My understanding is that the ri pandan is the substantial hooked part of the rondha, this is also the ri pandan when it appears as a single isolated element. The thingil is the small raised peak that is seen in the centre of the rondha.

The meaning of 'ri pandan' is "pandan thorn", the pandan is a plant that has thorns on the leaves of some varieties, those thorns frequently have a small hook. There are many varieties of pandan, the one that is used as a flavouring in food does not normally have hooks.

The meaning of "thingil" is "a small thing that stands above its surroundings". Actually, "thingil" is normally used in the form "thingil-thingil".

I believe my understanding is correct, as I have sometimes said:- in respect of keris books, especially Javanese keris books, people who write books are very good at writing books -----

drdavid · 5th August 2017, 02:39 AM

Alan, thank you for the clarification
This leads me to ask if I should consider the ron dha as containing the ri pandan and what ever name we give to the hook at the other end or just the curving edges (as in the script used to write aum) or possibly just the space with the thingil in the middle. Or all of the above.
cheers
DrDavid

4th August 2017, 03:25 PM	#1
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hi everybody, I am actually quite busy right now, but the attraction is too strong for me not to participate, so just a quick one. I am unsure if this makes sense or not. This is just a quick observation, so most likely it wont stand to close scrutiny. I see the greneng on the kerises presented here in a slightly different way. To start with, IMHO earlier greneng started with a notched ri pandan. This notch was then eroded away and later pandai keris copied the eroded version creating a Dha with a “bump” version Ri Pandan. And to the extreme version, the Dha no longer have a Ri Pandan and it looks like the letter C. Usually, Dha is placed after a thingil and is cut slightly lower than the thingil. What we are seeing on the keris posted here are probably the Dha with “bump” Ri pandan but were cut at the same level of the thingil and this makes it looks like it is an extra and wide thingil. This is probably a style used by the north coast keris makers. (Figure 1, 2 & 3) There’s another variant that were normally on much later Javanese keris is that an extra dha were cut on top of the thingil. (Figure 3.1) And on much later Balinese keris the dha is at normal position and the “NorthCoast” higher Dha position gets modified into another thingil (Figure 5) or into another element (Figure 4) making it three elements. I am unsure if keris in Figure 6 has an notched Dha in the middle or a gap. If it is a notched dha, then what I had said above is probably wrong assuming that the type of Dha used on a keris should be consistently shaped and unless keris in Figure 6 a slightly later Balinese keris. Sorry if what I write doesn’t make sense. p/s: Sorry, I have uploaded figures according to the sequence, but somehow it comes out in random order. Attached Images

4th August 2017, 04:41 PM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	By the way, probably this formation in front of the gandik is also a dha? If this is so, then we might have an explanation on the purpose of the lambe gajah. Attached Images

5th August 2017, 12:08 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Rasdan, I like your ideas. I'm sorry, but I need to think through the propositions you have put forward, this will take me a few days, so I cannot express any opinion right now. I'll get back to this in a few days. David, here is an image that gives a bit more detail on the greneng. If you look at an assortment of other charts of the greneng, or of the full keris for that matter, you will probably see some terms used that differ, or are applied to different elements. This sort of confusion is not really all that uncommon in Javanese related contexts. My feeling on the matter is that Javanese language is essentially intended for personal communication, speech, face to face, when the language is used in a written form the ideas and expression seem not to be so tightly held together as in, say, English. We need to adjust. The words "gunun" & "buntu mimi" have been clipped in reproduction, they should be :- "gunungan" & "buntut mimi". This image is a crop from the drawing in the front of the Surakarta dhapur pakem. EDIT, SECOND IMAGE second image taken from KJ --- Haryoguritno. Notice some variation? If we look at a wide selection of these charts we will find a number of differences. Try to be tolerant, this is the way Jawa works:- you think you understand something? Forget it, things move and change all the time.Nothing is carved in stone except the ancient monumental works. Attached Images Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 5th August 2017 at 12:27 AM.

5th August 2017, 12:50 AM	#10
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Just to add a bit. If we look closely, at the keris diagram in Keris Jawa book, we can see a small Dha formation on top of the thingil (term used in that book) as I mentioned in my first post above. This reminds me of the greneng for a Tilam Sari keris which probably includes a dha formation on the thingil followed with a wide and long dha. Image below. Attached Images

4th August 2017, 10:49 PM	#5
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Dear experts for those of us with less knowledge it would help greatly when you introduce a less common keris term if you can identify on a picture that element or at least give a brief description. For example in this discussion ri pandan is a new term to me and it is not on the illustration http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html that I use most frequently thanks Dr D

5th August 2017, 12:21 AM	#8
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Alan, Rasdan thanks for your input, however you don't seem to agree which bit is the ri pandan cheers DrD

5th August 2017, 01:13 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	We crossed posts David. My understanding is in accordance with what I was taught by Empu Suparman and agreed by Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, and understood by several of the Anak-Anak ASKI, it is also in agreement with descriptions of keris elements given in individual descriptions in the Surakarta Pakem. My understanding is that the ri pandan is the substantial hooked part of the rondha, this is also the ri pandan when it appears as a single isolated element. The thingil is the small raised peak that is seen in the centre of the rondha. The meaning of 'ri pandan' is "pandan thorn", the pandan is a plant that has thorns on the leaves of some varieties, those thorns frequently have a small hook. There are many varieties of pandan, the one that is used as a flavouring in food does not normally have hooks. The meaning of "thingil" is "a small thing that stands above its surroundings". Actually, "thingil" is normally used in the form "thingil-thingil". I believe my understanding is correct, as I have sometimes said:- in respect of keris books, especially Javanese keris books, people who write books are very good at writing books -----

5th August 2017, 02:39 AM	#12
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Alan, thank you for the clarification This leads me to ask if I should consider the ron dha as containing the ri pandan and what ever name we give to the hook at the other end or just the curving edges (as in the script used to write aum) or possibly just the space with the thingil in the middle. Or all of the above. cheers DrDavid