Period Photos of People with Ethnographic Arms

kahnjar1 · 27th July 2017, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Would this particular type of musket be called a Moroccan afedali snaphaunce lock musket? I originally had it as a kabyle (moukhala) musket.

Mukahla (Snaphaunce lock). Taroudant Region, Oued Sous Valley, Morocco.
Stu

kronckew · 27th July 2017, 08:30 AM

estcrh, the Kazakh's axe above looks rather odd, almost like there is a knife blade mounted from the head along the haft. after zooming in, it looks like it may be part of a suspension strap of some sort. still a bit confusing tho. is it something else behind him obscured by the axe? found the framed image that shows a similar axe with a similar anomaly. anyone have a similar axe or photo of one?

estcrh · 27th July 2017, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

estcrh, the Kazakh's axe above looks rather odd, almost like there is a knife blade mounted from the head along the haft. after zooming in, it looks like it may be part of a suspension strap of some sort. still a bit confusing tho. is it something else behind him obscured by the axe?

I also noticed it. I think it is a knife, there appears to be an attachment point near the middle. I also see some sort of suspension strap, which makes sense since you could not wrap your hand around the upper part of the shaft due to the knife blade being mounted there.

Take a look at how long this axe is. I found one image of some axes supposedly from the same region.

Axes, photo from the expedition. Dudina, North-East Kazakhstan, 1899.

kronckew · 27th July 2017, 09:07 AM

i've added a photo of a khazak with a similar odd axe to my earlier post...

a sharp axe & knife flopping about my person, even armoured, would not be my idea of safety. hopefully they had some sort of sheathing device to make it safe. a number of my axes have a languet on the front of the haft to protect it from impacts. could this be a similar device?

estcrh · 27th July 2017, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

i've added a photo of a khazak with a similar odd axe to my earlier post...

a sharp axe & knife flopping about my person, even armoured, would not be my idea of safety. hopefully they had some sort of sheathing device to make it safe. a number of my axes have a languet on the front of the haft to protect it from impacts. could this be a similar device?

I have never seen another axe like it. I guess we are very lucky to have this one photograph even. Here is a link to a Khazak museum with some info and a few images that are to small to post here. http://old.unesco.kz/heritagenet/kz/.../voorug_en.htm

Also a reproduction Khazak armor made for a Khazak museum, and a copy of the illustration you posted which has a very Persian look to it.

Kazakh batyr in mirror armour, 17th-18th century.

estcrh · 27th July 2017, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Mukahla (Snaphaunce lock). Taroudant Region, Oued Sous Valley, Morocco.
Stu

Stu, I see some very similar guns being described as "afedali", I am not very familiar with the terms used with North African guns, maybe someone can explain what makes a gun an "afedali". I have read that "afedali" is a Moroccan Moukhala from the Taroudant area and the Souss wadi bassin.

Kubur · 27th July 2017, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Stu, I see some very similar guns being described as "afedali", I am not very familiar with the terms used with North African guns, maybe someone can explain what makes a gun an "afedali". I have read that "afedali" is a Moroccan Moukhala from the Taroudant area and the Souss wadi bassin.

Well to me it's a Tetouan type from the Riff.

Like this one...

estcrh · 27th July 2017, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well to me it's a Tetouan type from the Riff.

Like this one...

The barrel and the barrel are strongly bonded together by a broad band of iron about 8 cm. This fitting is found on all the rifles of the south of Morocco (AFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT) and not on the Mokhala of TETOUAN.

kahnjar1 · 28th July 2017, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

The barrel and the barrel are strongly bonded together by a broad band of iron about 8 cm. This fitting is found on all the rifles of the south of Morocco (AFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT) and not on the Mokhala of TETOUAN.

Hi Estcrh,
The Term AFFEDALI as I understand it relates more to the to the shape of the stock which in turn relates to the particular region from which they originate. If you have Tirri's book, check out pages 20 to 22 and you will see the differing stock shapes, each given a particular name......TETUAN, AFFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT, and region from which they are found.
Stu

estcrh · 28th July 2017, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Estcrh,
The Term AFFEDALI as I understand it relates more to the to the shape of the stock which in turn relates to the particular region from which they originate. If you have Tirri's book, check out pages 20 to 22 and you will see the differing stock shapes, each given a particular name......TETUAN, AFFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT, and region from which they are found.
Stu

Stu, I do not have Tirri's book, but according to the website, an "Affendali" would have "the barrel and the barrel are strongly bonded together by a broad band of iron about 8 cm. This fitting is found on all the rifles of the south of Morocco (AFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT) and not on the Mokhala of TETOUAN", which is backed up by images of the various types.....so which is right??? The website implys that it is more then just the stock shapes that determines the name.

kahnjar1 · 28th July 2017, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Stu, I do not have Tirri's book, but according to the website, an "Affendali" would have "the barrel and the barrel are strongly bonded together by a broad band of iron about 8 cm. This fitting is found on all the rifles of the south of Morocco (AFEDALI, ALTIT and TAOUZILT) and not on the Mokhala of TETOUAN", which is backed up by images of the various types.....so which is right??? The website implys that it is more then just the stock shapes that determines the name.

Despite the different names shown above, the broad band "system" looks to me no different over the various types. The purpose would be the same.....to give strength to the barrel attachment to the stock. I have a Mukahla from the Taroudant Region, and it also has that wide band, though on mine it is copper/brass and not iron.
As an aside the Algerian guns shown, I would call Kabyle and not Mukahla.
Pics of my 2 guns attached.....Mukahla and Kabyle.
Stu

27th July 2017, 08:30 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	estcrh, the Kazakh's axe above looks rather odd, almost like there is a knife blade mounted from the head along the haft. after zooming in, it looks like it may be part of a suspension strap of some sort. still a bit confusing tho. is it something else behind him obscured by the axe? found the framed image that shows a similar axe with a similar anomaly. anyone have a similar axe or photo of one? Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 27th July 2017 at 09:02 AM.

27th July 2017, 09:07 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	i've added a photo of a khazak with a similar odd axe to my earlier post... a sharp axe & knife flopping about my person, even armoured, would not be my idea of safety. hopefully they had some sort of sheathing device to make it safe. a number of my axes have a languet on the front of the haft to protect it from impacts. could this be a similar device? Last edited by kronckew; 27th July 2017 at 09:17 AM.