Kris of Sumatra?

Jean · 21st July 2017, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,

wouldn't call it keris! Keris similar object describe it much better IMVHO!

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,
I agree with you but apply the recommendation from Alan that we should encourage our beginning members, and I remember that one of my first "krisses" was similar to this one although a little less eccentric...

Corrado, the attached pic shows a correct type of Madurese kris for reference.
Regards

Sajen · 21st July 2017, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Detlef,
I agree with you but apply the recommendation from Alan that we should encourage our beginning members, and I remember that one of my first "krisses" was similar to this one although a little less eccentric...

Corrado, the attached pic shows a correct type of Madurese kris for reference.
Regards

Hello Jean,

I don't want to deject Corrado from collecting keris but when I understand him correct he was looking for a wall decoration and he stated that he is happy with his buy. But we should say the truth and I think the truth is that this isn't a keris in the truest sense of the word.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 21st July 2017, 10:24 PM

Yes Detlef, I agree, it is not a keris.

But it is a good sort of a keris-like object to hang on the wall, and as has already been said, that is why Corrado bought it, apart from the fact of low price.

In fairness, it is craft-work that uses the same skills that are used in making a keris:- the blade has been forged, it does have pamor, it is very extravagantly ornamented with kinatah work, the scabbard and hilt have been carved.It does bear a somewhat better than average mendak.

I think this is a good start to collecting keris:- it tells Corrado what not to buy, but at the same time demonstrates the skills used in producing what he should aim to acquire.

David doesn't like the term "Tourist keris" , and neither do I. In fact there never have been many keris that were made specifically to sell to tourists. The only ones I can think of were the Bali things of the '70's & '80's that had flat iron blades and "pamor batik" (patterned blades created by covering with wax, drawing a motif, and soaking in acid).

This keris of Corrado's is not in any way "tourist", it is decorative craft-work, and an urban Indonesian could use it as a wall decoration, just as Corrado has done.

corrado26 · 22nd July 2017, 08:30 AM

Very interesting and many thanks
corrado26

Sajen · 22nd July 2017, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It does bear a somewhat better than average mendak.

Hello Alan,
yes, I agree, this is maybe the best part of this piece.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I think this is a good start to collecting keris:- it tells Corrado what not to buy, but at the same time demonstrates the skills used in producing what he should aim to acquire.

Agree complete with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David doesn't like the term "Tourist keris" , and neither do I. In fact there never have been many keris that were made specifically to sell to tourists. The only ones I can think of were the Bali things of the '70's & '80's that had flat iron blades and "pamor batik" (patterned blades created by covering with wax, drawing a motif, and soaking in acid).

Like you and David I also don't like this term and I agree with you that this blades with "pamor batik" could be termed as best "tourist keris".

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This keris of Corrado's is not in any way "tourist", it is decorative craft-work, and an urban Indonesian could use it as a wall decoration, just as Corrado has done.

Here I don't agree complete, also an Indonesian could be a tourist in his own country. The complete execution of this piece is more as roughly worked, the blade and special the wood carving, not nearly in the way what Madurese craftsmen are able to do. So when the term "tourist keris" could be used it would fit by this piece as best IMVHO.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 22nd July 2017, 09:15 AM

Yes Detlef, you're right, this is rough work. No doubt about it.

Rough work = low price. Its decorative, and even when somebody from Jakarta or Surabaya does go into Jawa Tengah to visit the kratons and candis, their pockets are not lined with gold. If they do buy a souvenir they weigh the cost of the kenang2an against what they need to cut from the budget to buy it. This decorative item is pretty much exactly what ordinary middle-class people buy to take home to a house in the suburbs of Jakarta, Surabaya etc. So yeah, if we're thinking Indonesian tourists, maybe that's legitimate.

But in the tourist centres of Kuta/Legian. or Sanur, or Ubud, or Jogja, the trade in keris and other weaponry sold to tourists collapsed about 20 years ago. As terrorism rose, all countries tightened restrictions on import of all sorts of weaponry, and the citizens of these countries got some pretty restrictive ideas on what they might be able to take home.

For people such as you and I, well, speaking for myself I know exactly what I can take into Australia, and over the years I have needed to educate more than one aggressive Customs officer. I've never had a loss nor a seizure, but I have seen other people who had no knowledge of the law being bullied by Customs officers into surrendering legitimate items.

Word gets around, so these days most people who are outside The World of Sharp, Pointy Things simply will not buy anything at all that they think might cause them a problem. Result:- people from outside Indonesia very, very rarely buy keris & etc as souvenirs these days. The sort of thing Corrado has is actually produced for the domestic market as a decoration. like a plaque, or a wall vase, or a painting.

But, as you point out, there can be local tourists as well as international tourists, so maybe "tourist keris" fits, but I personally prefer "decorative item", and leave the identification of a potential buyer blank.

Johan van Zyl · 22nd July 2017, 10:54 AM

My take is that a worthy keris is a combination of genuineness and true craftmanship, together with the cultural canny of the empu, so that the symbolics are correctly understood and presented. I know this little "definition" might invite lots of comment, but my point is that once a collector has seen & handled very many good kerisses, he forms a norm in his mind. All kerisses he subsequently sees, are compared to that norm. It works that way for a good hunting rifle, or Roman coinage, if I may use two very different interests.

When I saw Corrado's pics of that attention-grabbing scabbard, my first impression was: "Hey, I don't have the skill to sculpt a gambar like that!" But my second thought was: "The guys are going to shoot this dress, and that blade, down in flames!" And that's what happened - good naturedly, of course. Bully for Corrado that he knew what he was getting. And his pics were very good - thanks for that.

Interestingly, in coinage we have this saying: You don't study a fake to learn what the real thing looks like. You study the real thing to get to know what a fake looks like!

(Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that Corrado's wall hanger is a fake. I don't think very many keris replicas are made with the intent to deceive. If that were the case, they could be called fakes. - my two cents worth.)

Johan

Marcokeris · 22nd July 2017, 12:45 PM

mendak could be use for real keris

21st July 2017, 10:24 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes Detlef, I agree, it is not a keris. But it is a good sort of a keris-like object to hang on the wall, and as has already been said, that is why Corrado bought it, apart from the fact of low price. In fairness, it is craft-work that uses the same skills that are used in making a keris:- the blade has been forged, it does have pamor, it is very extravagantly ornamented with kinatah work, the scabbard and hilt have been carved.It does bear a somewhat better than average mendak. I think this is a good start to collecting keris:- it tells Corrado what not to buy, but at the same time demonstrates the skills used in producing what he should aim to acquire. David doesn't like the term "Tourist keris" , and neither do I. In fact there never have been many keris that were made specifically to sell to tourists. The only ones I can think of were the Bali things of the '70's & '80's that had flat iron blades and "pamor batik" (patterned blades created by covering with wax, drawing a motif, and soaking in acid). This keris of Corrado's is not in any way "tourist", it is decorative craft-work, and an urban Indonesian could use it as a wall decoration, just as Corrado has done.

22nd July 2017, 08:30 AM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	Very interesting and many thanks corrado26

22nd July 2017, 09:15 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes Detlef, you're right, this is rough work. No doubt about it. Rough work = low price. Its decorative, and even when somebody from Jakarta or Surabaya does go into Jawa Tengah to visit the kratons and candis, their pockets are not lined with gold. If they do buy a souvenir they weigh the cost of the kenang2an against what they need to cut from the budget to buy it. This decorative item is pretty much exactly what ordinary middle-class people buy to take home to a house in the suburbs of Jakarta, Surabaya etc. So yeah, if we're thinking Indonesian tourists, maybe that's legitimate. But in the tourist centres of Kuta/Legian. or Sanur, or Ubud, or Jogja, the trade in keris and other weaponry sold to tourists collapsed about 20 years ago. As terrorism rose, all countries tightened restrictions on import of all sorts of weaponry, and the citizens of these countries got some pretty restrictive ideas on what they might be able to take home. For people such as you and I, well, speaking for myself I know exactly what I can take into Australia, and over the years I have needed to educate more than one aggressive Customs officer. I've never had a loss nor a seizure, but I have seen other people who had no knowledge of the law being bullied by Customs officers into surrendering legitimate items. Word gets around, so these days most people who are outside The World of Sharp, Pointy Things simply will not buy anything at all that they think might cause them a problem. Result:- people from outside Indonesia very, very rarely buy keris & etc as souvenirs these days. The sort of thing Corrado has is actually produced for the domestic market as a decoration. like a plaque, or a wall vase, or a painting. But, as you point out, there can be local tourists as well as international tourists, so maybe "tourist keris" fits, but I personally prefer "decorative item", and leave the identification of a potential buyer blank.

22nd July 2017, 10:54 AM	#7
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	My take is that a worthy keris is a combination of genuineness and true craftmanship, together with the cultural canny of the empu, so that the symbolics are correctly understood and presented. I know this little "definition" might invite lots of comment, but my point is that once a collector has seen & handled very many good kerisses, he forms a norm in his mind. All kerisses he subsequently sees, are compared to that norm. It works that way for a good hunting rifle, or Roman coinage, if I may use two very different interests. When I saw Corrado's pics of that attention-grabbing scabbard, my first impression was: "Hey, I don't have the skill to sculpt a gambar like that!" But my second thought was: "The guys are going to shoot this dress, and that blade, down in flames!" And that's what happened - good naturedly, of course. Bully for Corrado that he knew what he was getting. And his pics were very good - thanks for that. Interestingly, in coinage we have this saying: You don't study a fake to learn what the real thing looks like. You study the real thing to get to know what a fake looks like! (Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that Corrado's wall hanger is a fake. I don't think very many keris replicas are made with the intent to deceive. If that were the case, they could be called fakes. - my two cents worth.) Johan

22nd July 2017, 12:45 PM	#8
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	mendak could be use for real keris