The Omani Battle Sword. Sayf Yamaani.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

The origin of the jineta sword, or even most of the sword types from the muslim area in the Iberic Peninsula, are not "Spanish", but have their origin in North Africa or possibly the Middle East, not counting the very early purchases of swords to the Franks. The jineta sword type was carried into Spain by the Zenete or Zenata berbers from the nation (or "tribe", if you prefer this colonialistic denomination) of the Banu Marin. What concerns me, is the origin of this sword, characterized by the downcurved quillons, the pommel in the form of a dome and the broad blade with a fuller on the first half. Probably the hilt went to further elaboration in the Iberic Peninsula, as the quillons being elongated and their ends sometimes flattened to give space for adornments, and the pommels also being more elaborated. Eliminating those late ornaments, what remains is a fighting sword with a little more than a vague resemblance to your sword.

I don't think those muslim swords from the Iberic Peninsula have anything to do with the early Mamluk swords or the Sword of the Prophet (which one?). Before the Banu Marin, there were influences from the Almohades, and before them the Almoravids, who penetrated in this Peninsula by request of the muslim rulers over there. All of them connected with the Sahara Desert and its trade routes. The origins and development of many types of swords from North Africa and the Arab countries is something to be explored. I don't believe in the simplistic explanation of the "European influence" whenever is found a resemblance with Europe's types of swords, and though the cross-polinization among cultures is undoubtedly a fact, we actually don't know for certain the genealogy of these weapons.
Regards

I dont disagree ...nor do I agree since both sides used the same weapon; The Christians developing it after it had been used against them by the Moors. Thus I used the generic name Spanish and since they were produced in Toledo in addition.

I agree that these swords carry similarities to the Old Sayf Yamaani but that it may simply be coincidental. The link may be in the influence of Swords of The Prophet which I think numbered about 7... of which examples are at Topkapi Museum.

The Sayf Yamaani appears to predate the Jineta by a few hundred years.

I would like to see all the information on the Jineta brought into focus and with its own consolidated thread so a good look can be made of the weapon...

PLEASE SEE http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=JINETA+SWORD which is I think our only Library reference on this weapon.

Perhaps you would like to take that on... Naturally I would be in full support and I am sure others would chip in...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gonzalo G]

Ok, I saw the link to that discussion. And your post, three years latter. And your post over there answer my question. I just tried to know what is your opinion on the possible relation of both types of swords, and not to bring all the information on the jineta sword.

The term "Spanish" is derivated from "Spain". And Spain didn't exist in that time (15th Century), as "India" didn't exist before the British. Only a conglomerate of rival christian kingdoms speaking different languages and, of course Al-Andalus, and after it, the muslim Emirates (the "Taifa") and lastly, the Emirate of Granada. Spain is not a territory, but a nation state. But this political matter is not important in this discussion, so thank you for your opinion on the subject of the swords.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Ok, I saw the link to that discussion. And your post, three years latter. And your post over there answer my question. I just tried to know what is your opinion on the possible relation of both types of swords, and not to bring all the information on the jineta sword.

The term "Spanish" is derivated from "Spain". And Spain didn't exist in that time (15th Century), as "India" didn't exist before the British. Only a conglomerate of rival christian kingdoms speaking different languages and, of course Al-Andalus, and after it, the Muslim Emirates (the "Taifa") and lastly, the Emirate of Granada. Spain is not a territory, but a nation state. But this political matter is not important in this discussion, so thank you for your opinion on the subject of the swords.

Salaams, Perhaps I will open the thread on this weapon since we have hardly a page of detail on Library. The history of the region is very interesting not least the potential for discussion of Jinetas in this regard.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I HAVE A BETTER IDEA ... WHY DONT WE CONTINUE THE EXISTING THREAD ...Its only about one page thus, I suggest expanding on this simply by bringing it on !! Here goes....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

A few more pictures as a reminder of the Old Omani Battle Sword... The Sayf Yamaani.

[ariel]

Ibrahiim,
We have seen these pictures before. They were posted right in this topic.
Perhaps, there is no need to re-post them.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Ibrahiim,
We have seen these pictures before. They were posted right in this topic.
Perhaps, there is no need to re-post them.

Well I can live with a bit of repetition as a form of pictorial memory jogger... Perhaps you can find some more?

[Gonzalo G]

Interesting resemblance with a qattara in Mozarab-Spanish illustrations.

92a-b) Illustrations of ‘Sword of St. Peter’ and ‘Guards at the Holy Sepulche’ in the Avila Bible, Mozarab-Spanish 12-13 cent AD (Biblioteca Nacional, Ms. ER8, Madrid). 93) Carving of ‘St. James’, Spanish 12-13 cent AD (in situ Church of Santiago, Betanzos, La Coruña).

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Interesting resemblance with a qattara in Mozarab-Spanish illustrations.

92a-b) Illustrations of ‘Sword of St. Peter’ and ‘Guards at the Holy Sepulche’ in the Avila Bible, Mozarab-Spanish 12-13 cent AD (Biblioteca Nacional, Ms. ER8, Madrid). 93) Carving of ‘St. James’, Spanish 12-13 cent AD (in situ Church of Santiago, Betanzos, La Coruña).

Salaams Gonzalo, I was watching the Jinetta thread and wondering about those sketches with the broadsword and turned down quilons. Well placed and food for thought especially with the artwork seen above from the astrology chart and the Makamat al Harriri. Well placed thank you.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gonzalo G]

Salam aleikum, Ibrahiim.
I believe that your sword and the jineta have a common ancestry in the "classic" muslim sword.

Regards

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Salam aleikum, Ibrahiim.
I believe that your sword and the jineta have a common ancestry in the "classic" muslim sword.

Regards

Salaams Gonzalo G ~ Whilst no one would disagree that there are subtle similarities and shades of partial mirroring there is no direct technical form or construction inherent in both that could be construed as deliberate technical transfer... so what are the similarities? ... remembering that we have virtually no examples of the original Jinetta to compare with. So we are comparing the Sayf Yamaani with the highly ornate precious metal and decidedly aristocratic VIP version whilst trying to imagine what a Jinetta battle sword should look like... Not easy. In addition no one has a clue as to where the Berber version came from.

Where I do agree that the Jinetta had down turned quillons it has to be said that so did a lot of weapons in that culture broadly. It can be said that both swords would have been worn on a Baldric over the shoulder. This can be said about all Islamic swords and going back to Swords of The Prophet where it is known that this was the preferred way it was worn....and it is how the Sayf Yamaani was carried and I believe how the Jinetta was carried and how that also seems to have developed with a saddle baldric in addition.

Nevertheless I do generally agree that similarities are present in both these concepts and I look forward to seeing more evidence in that regard..and I support the general idea.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.