By a collector, for collectors

Marcokeris · 14th July 2017, 08:15 PM

A really good book, very detailed and full of information

Jean · 14th July 2017, 08:31 PM

Thank you very much to Alan, Nik, and Marco for their very positive comments! It is very rewarding to hear for concluding this 7 years project

Regards

Bjorn · 15th July 2017, 08:36 PM

Good to hear that the book is a valuable contribution, well done, Jean!

I already purchased a copy upon release but haven't read through it yet owing to other commitments.
Once I have some time, I look forward to reading it thoroughly!

ariel · 16th July 2017, 03:42 AM

Even though ( or maybe because of) I am a complete ignoramus about kris, I decided to get this book.
It was just what the doctor ordered: informative, concise, with just enough information to give a novice a decent idea about physical aspects of kris.

I have read enough here about the spiritual importance of this unique weapon.
That I shall leave to the next book. Or the next life. But Jean's book is giving me enough background to begin the journey. This is something I was unable to find in other books and gives me an opportunity to learn. The rest is up to me.

Jean, many thanks for sharing your knowledge, experience and wisdom. It is said that one should be in eternal debt to a person who taught him even a single letter. You have done much, much more than that, and not only for this newbie, but for a lot of people.
Congratulations with a job well done!
And, again, thank you !

Rick · 21st July 2017, 04:54 PM

Your book has arrived safely.
I would PM you this news but your inbox is full.

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2017, 07:05 PM

I got my copy today... signed & numbered.

But as soon as I opened it, I noticed it has a major flaw: it comes in only 100 copies!

I had high expectations from this book... and they all were exceeded!

From my perspective, Jean's book is the best book on the Keris I have seen so far and definitely the best one I have (and I have quite a few).

It is precise, clearly explained, richly illustrated and very practically structured. Because of its clear and well defined structure, the information in it is very easily accessible, turnig the book into a very useful and practical tool for any collector. In other words, it is exactly the book that many collectors were waiting for, as Alan mentioned in his posting.

Thank you Jean!

PS: I however believe that this book should be made available to many more than 100 lucky collectors.

S.Workman · 25th July 2017, 12:23 PM

Has anyone seen both this new volume and Mr Greffioz' other book The Kris, A Passion from Indonesia? Anything duplicated, or is the new volume all new entries? I am trying to determine if I ought to buy both.

Anthony G. · 5th April 2018, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you very much to Alan, Nik, and Marco for their very positive comments! It is very rewarding to hear for concluding this 7 years project

Regards

Hi

How I can buy the book and is it still available for sale? Thank you.

David · 5th April 2018, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

Hi

How I can buy the book and is it still available for sale? Thank you.

Hi Anthony. We keep the commercial off the regular forums as a rule, but you can find a posting of this book in the Keris Swap Forum where you can find such information. Thanks!

Seerp Visser · 5th April 2018, 06:49 PM

jagabuwana,

I know both books mentioned in this thread.
The Javanese kris (Der Kris der Javaner), i should recommend.

Dr. Groneman was a physician, not an empu and even not a blacksmith.
Some parts of the work performed by Karja di Krama were even not described by Dr. Groneman, so most likely, they were not shown to him.

When you want to learn to forge a keris, you will have to find the answers to a lot of remaining questions.

But..... that is a good training and wil give you a lot of satisfaction each time you approach closer to the results you want to reach.

You will find out that the empu's were real masters, but also these days i see very good forging work and beautiful results.

I am practizing the forging of the keris, made by karja di Krama, since 2014 and get the feeling that i am coming close (i am a blacksmith by profession).

Wenever yo might have a specific question i can help you with, you may always contact me. If i know the answer i will tell you.

jagabuwana · 5th April 2018, 11:36 PM

thank you everyone, this has all been very helpful.

Seerp, thank you for offering your knowledge and I'm sure there's a lot I can learn.

Anthony G. · 6th April 2018, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hi Anthony. We keep the commercial off the regular forums as a rule, but you can find a posting of this book in the Keris Swap Forum where you can find such information. Thanks!

Many thanks, David.

A. G. Maisey · 7th April 2018, 01:32 PM

Kai, I regret I am not free to detail the major missing step in the forging process presented by Dr. Gronemann. There are a number of steps that have been omitted in Dr. Gronemann's account, and I am not at all certain as to why.

The craftsman may have concealed parts of the process, or Dr. Gronemann may not have understood what he was looking at. Or perhaps he felt that it was not necessary to give a blow by blow account, perhaps in his judgement, an overview was all that was required.

I think I can probably say this much:- certain steps are required to preserve any intentional pamor pattern. Examine Dr. Gronemann's description and see if you can identify these steps.

I do not have access to this book at the present time, so I am unable to pursue any detailed discussion, I am running on memory.

I know that Seerp has been working on keris production for a very extended period of time, and I fully accept that he is an experienced tradesman, however, in spite of this, my own experience in keris production demonstrated to me that once basic forge technology and technique is understood, the production of a forging from which a keris is carved is neither a lengthy, nor a difficult process, when simple mlumah pamor patterns are involved.

When pamor miring is involved the levels of difficulty rise and only truly talented craftsmen can successfully accomplish the required pattern welds.

The time and difficulty involved in forge work, whether pamor mlumah or pamor miring is involved shrink into insignificance when compared with the time and difficulty involved in the layout and carving of a keris blade.

Everybody talks about beautifully forged blades, but the real challenge comes with carving, most especially so when only traditional tools are used.

In fact, both old-time empus, and many, if not most current era keris makers regarded and regard the hands on forging of a blade below their status. They use smiths and their assistants for the forge work, which they may or may not supervise, depending upon the level of difficulty involved.

Probably the best sources to assist in gaining an understanding of the forge work involved in keris production are re-prints of old blacksmithing text books, and the books that have been published in recent years by people like Jim Hrisoulis.

I repeat:- the forge work is not difficult: I forged and finished my first keris blade after about 3 eight hour days of instruction in forge work. This a very poor effort at a keris, but it did qualify as one, and it does bear simple wos wutah pamor.

By profession I am an auditor.

My introduction to forge work was with the use of a coal fired forge, which means that when it came to welding, I needed to produce my own coke from the coal. I later used coke that was ready to use, I used charcoal, and I used gas, but I never used gas on keris work. Welding in gas is about as difficult as making a chocolate cake.

jagabuwana · 9th April 2018, 04:38 AM

Thank you, Alan. I'll get my hands on Dr Groneman's book eventually, and will see if I can identify the steps involved in intentional pamor creation.

It's also heartening to hear that the forging itself is not all too difficult. I plan to do some blacksmithing courses, after which I hope I can begin to make a keris.
When you say "carving" do you refer to when elements such as the sogokan, ada-ada, greneng etc. are fashioned? If I thought the forging was going to be difficult, then these seem far more tedious and surgical.

21st July 2017, 04:54 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Jean Your book has arrived safely. I would PM you this news but your inbox is full.

21st July 2017, 07:05 PM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	major flaw of this book I got my copy today... signed & numbered. But as soon as I opened it, I noticed it has a major flaw: it comes in only 100 copies! I had high expectations from this book... and they all were exceeded! From my perspective, Jean's book is the best book on the Keris I have seen so far and definitely the best one I have (and I have quite a few). It is precise, clearly explained, richly illustrated and very practically structured. Because of its clear and well defined structure, the information in it is very easily accessible, turnig the book into a very useful and practical tool for any collector. In other words, it is exactly the book that many collectors were waiting for, as Alan mentioned in his posting. Thank you Jean! PS: I however believe that this book should be made available to many more than 100 lucky collectors.

14th July 2017, 08:15 PM	#1
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	A really good book, very detailed and full of information

14th July 2017, 08:31 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you very much to Alan, Nik, and Marco for their very positive comments! It is very rewarding to hear for concluding this 7 years project Regards

15th July 2017, 08:36 PM	#3
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	Good to hear that the book is a valuable contribution, well done, Jean! I already purchased a copy upon release but haven't read through it yet owing to other commitments. Once I have some time, I look forward to reading it thoroughly!

16th July 2017, 03:42 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Even though ( or maybe because of) I am a complete ignoramus about kris, I decided to get this book. It was just what the doctor ordered: informative, concise, with just enough information to give a novice a decent idea about physical aspects of kris. I have read enough here about the spiritual importance of this unique weapon. That I shall leave to the next book. Or the next life. But Jean's book is giving me enough background to begin the journey. This is something I was unable to find in other books and gives me an opportunity to learn. The rest is up to me. Jean, many thanks for sharing your knowledge, experience and wisdom. It is said that one should be in eternal debt to a person who taught him even a single letter. You have done much, much more than that, and not only for this newbie, but for a lot of people. Congratulations with a job well done! And, again, thank you !

25th July 2017, 12:23 PM	#7
S.Workman Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 116	Has anyone seen both this new volume and Mr Greffioz' other book The Kris, A Passion from Indonesia? Anything duplicated, or is the new volume all new entries? I am trying to determine if I ought to buy both.

5th April 2018, 06:49 PM	#10
Seerp Visser Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 37	jagabuwana, I know both books mentioned in this thread. The Javanese kris (Der Kris der Javaner), i should recommend. Dr. Groneman was a physician, not an empu and even not a blacksmith. Some parts of the work performed by Karja di Krama were even not described by Dr. Groneman, so most likely, they were not shown to him. When you want to learn to forge a keris, you will have to find the answers to a lot of remaining questions. But..... that is a good training and wil give you a lot of satisfaction each time you approach closer to the results you want to reach. You will find out that the empu's were real masters, but also these days i see very good forging work and beautiful results. I am practizing the forging of the keris, made by karja di Krama, since 2014 and get the feeling that i am coming close (i am a blacksmith by profession). Wenever yo might have a specific question i can help you with, you may always contact me. If i know the answer i will tell you.

5th April 2018, 11:36 PM	#11
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	thank you everyone, this has all been very helpful. Seerp, thank you for offering your knowledge and I'm sure there's a lot I can learn.

7th April 2018, 01:32 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Kai, I regret I am not free to detail the major missing step in the forging process presented by Dr. Gronemann. There are a number of steps that have been omitted in Dr. Gronemann's account, and I am not at all certain as to why. The craftsman may have concealed parts of the process, or Dr. Gronemann may not have understood what he was looking at. Or perhaps he felt that it was not necessary to give a blow by blow account, perhaps in his judgement, an overview was all that was required. I think I can probably say this much:- certain steps are required to preserve any intentional pamor pattern. Examine Dr. Gronemann's description and see if you can identify these steps. I do not have access to this book at the present time, so I am unable to pursue any detailed discussion, I am running on memory. I know that Seerp has been working on keris production for a very extended period of time, and I fully accept that he is an experienced tradesman, however, in spite of this, my own experience in keris production demonstrated to me that once basic forge technology and technique is understood, the production of a forging from which a keris is carved is neither a lengthy, nor a difficult process, when simple mlumah pamor patterns are involved. When pamor miring is involved the levels of difficulty rise and only truly talented craftsmen can successfully accomplish the required pattern welds. The time and difficulty involved in forge work, whether pamor mlumah or pamor miring is involved shrink into insignificance when compared with the time and difficulty involved in the layout and carving of a keris blade. Everybody talks about beautifully forged blades, but the real challenge comes with carving, most especially so when only traditional tools are used. In fact, both old-time empus, and many, if not most current era keris makers regarded and regard the hands on forging of a blade below their status. They use smiths and their assistants for the forge work, which they may or may not supervise, depending upon the level of difficulty involved. Probably the best sources to assist in gaining an understanding of the forge work involved in keris production are re-prints of old blacksmithing text books, and the books that have been published in recent years by people like Jim Hrisoulis. I repeat:- the forge work is not difficult: I forged and finished my first keris blade after about 3 eight hour days of instruction in forge work. This a very poor effort at a keris, but it did qualify as one, and it does bear simple wos wutah pamor. By profession I am an auditor. My introduction to forge work was with the use of a coal fired forge, which means that when it came to welding, I needed to produce my own coke from the coal. I later used coke that was ready to use, I used charcoal, and I used gas, but I never used gas on keris work. Welding in gas is about as difficult as making a chocolate cake.

9th April 2018, 04:38 AM	#14
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Thank you, Alan. I'll get my hands on Dr Groneman's book eventually, and will see if I can identify the steps involved in intentional pamor creation. It's also heartening to hear that the forging itself is not all too difficult. I plan to do some blacksmithing courses, after which I hope I can begin to make a keris. When you say "carving" do you refer to when elements such as the sogokan, ada-ada, greneng etc. are fashioned? If I thought the forging was going to be difficult, then these seem far more tedious and surgical.