ratcheting mechanism on Spanish Navajas

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, you're right Chris.

Intended function of ratchet?

Prevents accidental closure of blade.

[Chris Evans]

Rick:

That painting is titled `El Enano De La Venta’ (The Dwarf Of Sale) by Antonio Medina and is located in the Museo Taurino De Madrid.

`The Dwarf Of Sale’ is a quaint popular expression that is based on a fictional personality and which is used to describe a person who makes bombastic threats but cannot carry them out.

The size of the navaja on the ground is consistent with the majority in use, according to Forton.

Lee:

Your navaja’s style is consistent of those made in the 19th century in the city of Albacete. It has what we call a pick-lock, meaning that the backspring has to be manually lifted upwards to disengage from the lock notch in the blade. These were superseded by the ring lock around 1875, so yours is earlier.

A.G. Maisey:



That is the role of the engagement notch in the blade and not of the ratchet teeth.

Most modern navajas of the traditional pattern do not feature the ratchet and have a simple engagement notch in the heel of the blade so as to secure it in the open position.

As suggested earlier, the ratchet may form a kind of a backup in case the back-spring for some reason disengages from the blade notch. Or, its main function is to prevent the navaja from being opened easily, unintentionally or intentionally as by being flicked open.

In Forton's 490 page in depth study of the navaja, which dedicates a whole chapter to the technicalities of this knife, mention is made of the ratchet stating that it is a variant of the plain `window' lock and that it appeared in the 18th century, but without giving any reason for its raison d'etre. This I find noteworthy, because Forton knew navajas extremely well and must have felt that its intended function is lost in the mist of time.

Cheers
Chris


.

[A. G. Maisey]

With my most humble apologies Chris, I beg to disagree that the role of notch and latch is to prevent accidental closure of the blade.

The role of the notch and latch is to lock the blade into position.

However, if that positive lock is not effectively made when the blade is initially opened, what occurs is accidental closure. Similarly, if the latch is accidentally or intentionally knocked the notch becomes disengaged and again we have accidental closure.

The mechanical function of any ratchet system is to permit incremental opening or closing of a loaded body. The blade of the navaja is loaded by virtue of its weight, it relies totally on the notch and latch to keep it in place. Failure of proper engagement of the notch into the latch by whatever cause will free the blade and cause damage to the hand of the user. Use of a ratchet system that will permit an incremental closure will provide a degree of protection to the user.

Risk management Chris. Just that. People have always managed risk, and this is the way they managed the risk of a loosely swinging blade in an unlocked navaja.

This entire question is actually an engineering question. I don't see it as a cultural question, or a question connected with the inherent categorisation of collecting, but rather the type of question that could be put to a design engineer , even today.

As has already been said:- "--- the ratchet may form a kind of a backup in case the back-spring for some reason disengages from the blade notch.---".

I've said exactly the same thing but in different words. In fact, my initial five word opinion is in agreement with the previous comment.

[Chris Evans]

A.G Maisey:

We are in agreement that the ratchet can function as a backup to the main notch. However, it is also undeniable that it impedes silent, fast or inadvertent opening. So here we have three more functions, all related to opening.

Now the question remains which was paramount in the incorporation of the ratchet and why. The Cold Steel Elan and Kudu renditions of a traditional navaja also incorporate a ratchet, but the teeth are rounded and do not positively stop the blade at any one position, only impedes its motion - Clearly it serves a greater role re opening than closing.

This entire question is actually an engineering question. I don't see it as a cultural question, <snip>

When it comes to weapons, engineering considerations very often address legal requirements. What stands in the way of the there being a cultural/legal aspect to this or for that matter any design feature, especially one that is targeted by the law, as locks were?

Forton makes it clear that old Spanish law concentrated on the locking mechanism and navajas with a positive lock were illegal. So now we have a curious situation in which the law declared lockable navajas prohibited weapons, but in many areas they were sort of tolerated. By sort I mean that from time to time the authorities clamped down on their use and at others did nothing.

The Castilla La Mancha area is and was the traditional home of the Spanish cutlery industry and zealous enforcement of the law would have had serious economic consequences; So this accounts for the lax and inconsistent law enforcement.

As a hypothesis, and that is all this is, it is reasonable to posit that the local authorities required the presence a ratchet on all navajas, as suggested by my Spanish contact, to reduce their efficacy as weapons.

Here we have to remember the that the sole reason behind the navaja’s existence was the banning of all effective weapons after the Spanish War Of Succession and the subsequent ascent of the House of Bourbon to the Spanish throne, a French royal house imposed on Spain and one that greatly feared rebellion.

I have an open mind on the subject, though I find the explanation of intimidation by the noise produced hard to accept.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Hi Chris,

You are correct concerning the Spanish legislation on edged weapons, but it was not privative of the borbonic regime. Carlos III reigned from 1759 to 1788, but before his legislation on this subject (pragmática from April, 1761), there were other laws before him expresly prohibiting all edged weapons to the common people (pragmáticas from 1740, 1751 and 1754), stating that only working knives were allowed, but should have no point whatsoever rounded. Navajas developed as a way to avoid the law, since they have not fixed blade, though the navajas with locking mechanisms did were prohibited. There are diverse myths surrounding this type of navaja, called "de carraca", "de muelle" or "de siete muelles" (for those which had seven notches). In fact, this mechanism was only adopted by reasons of secure handling, and latter were added the myths concerning the initimidation and legal factors. If for legal reasons, the locking mechanism would be an obstacle and not a way to facilitate their use.

You are also right about the fear of rebellion. Authoritarian and unpopular goverments are always fear of rebellion and love prohibitions, specially on weapons. In the New Spain (more o less actual Mexico), only the Spaniards could use weapons and ride horses. And only they could produce knives or swords. But the people always find a way to avoid the prohibitions, and even to disobey them. So, the navajas were tolerated to a certain point as working tools, less dangerous than the fixed blade knives, no matter they grew in time to greater sizes. I am under the impression that the navajas de carraca are a late devolpment, when this legislation was no longer enforced.
Regards

[Chris Evans]

Gonzalo:

Nice to have you back again as I always enjoy reading your valuable contributions.

….but it was not privative of the borbonic regime <snip>

Quoting Forton (freely translated): The first legal proclamation in this matter was made on December 21, 1721 by King Philip V, in Lerma.

As you well know, Philip V was Bourbon and that the whole Spanish War Of Succession was about the virtual annexation of Spain by France/Bourbons altering the balance of power in Europe.

In fact, this mechanism was only adopted by reasons of secure handling, and latter were added the myths concerning the intimidation and legal factors.

The lock was certainly and obviously added for the safety of the wielder, but as for the ratchet we simply do not know. We can all guess, but we do not know. If Forton with all his knowledge shied away from expressing an opinion, then we will all be well served in being equally prudent.

I am under the impression that the navajas de carraca are a late devolpment, when this legislation was no longer enforced

There are navajas dated to the 18th century with `carraca’ and Forton dates this feature back to the earliest navajas.

A.G. Maisey:

Chris, I do not disagree that that there could be a legal element involved in this matter, and if this is the case then those with an interest in this subject should be able to carry out the requisite research to establish precisely what the law and attached regulations and definitions were.

Firstly, I must declare that I and Gonzalo have an advantage in this discussion because he is a native Spanish speaker and I have a good command of the language, and thus we both have read extensively from many original sources, the principal being the writings of Rafael Martinez del Peral Y Forton, the foremost expert in Spain on the subject. Unfortunately, his works remain untranslated.

Forton's most important work is `La Navaja Española Antigua', mandatory reading for anyone who ventures forth to study this most interesting tool and weapon.

In the 490 pages of this huge work, Forton dedicates a whole chapter to the legal aspects of the navaja. He concluded that the navaja, as we know it, appeared in Spain early in the 18th century and not before, and the historical study or relevant documents pre-dating this era failed to mention its presence because people could own whatever weapons they could afford. Here it is important to note that the Spanish wars of Succession unfolded between 1702 and 1715.

So simply stated we can say that the navaja came into being on account of the weapon bans brought in by the ascent of the Bourbons after the last of the Spanish Hapsburgs, Charles II, failed to establish a successor.

As such, the navaja cannot seriously be studied outside of the laws of the time, which effectively created it. And here we have to remember that the navaja is a very poor weapon compared to a fixed blade knife and it was something that the Spaniards defaulted to rather than what they wanted to have as a sidearm.

Your suggestion of researching the laws of the time is sound and is exactly what Forton did. But what muddies the waters, so to speak is that on the one hand there were the laws and on the other these were inconsistently enforced, mostly at the arbitrary whim of the local authorities who had to take many other factors into consideration. One important contributing factor to all this was the political unrest that troubled Spain throughout the 19th century.

As an aside, the cumulative effects of the punitive and repressive laws, albeit inconsistently applied, in time reduced the once world famous Spanish cutlery industry, in Forton's words, to a mere shadow of itself by the mid 19th century, and by which time millions of navajas made in France flooded into the country - These were both better made and cheaper.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Hi Chris,

It is nice to "talk" with you again. You are right, I forgot Philip V was enthroned in 1700. My apologies.

I have some doubts about the work of Forton. The locking mechanism "de muelle" (spring loaded) is present since the early "Spanish" navajas, but dating the specific carraca mechanism to so early date gives me some of these doubts. The other, more important point about Forton: navajas were presumably known and used in this area since the Roman times. The original navaja from Albacete is attributed to the muslim culture in its stytilistic features. Albacete was founded by the muslim rulers (the city of Al-Basit), and was famous for its muslim knifemakers since that time.

The Spanish people has been systematically denying and hiding their muslim and jewish heritage since the time of the catholic kings, and moreover since the Franco's dictadorship, but for some architectural and decorative contributions. I believe Forton is no exception. Do you believe that the production of navajas was forgotten completely after the fall of the Roman Empire, and suddenly, after the creation of the Spanish state in the 16th Century, they began producing navajas? and less those navajas from Albacete which does not look "Spanish" at all, but moorish? I know, there are not historic items connecting the Spanish navajas with their ancestors from the muslim rule. But you also cannot find historic muslim cimitarras and alfanjes from that time, in spite that they are abundantly mentioned in the sources as moorish weapons. The few ones I have seen as such are in fact Renacentist Venetian stortas!

I am sorry if this comment on Forton statements became a disgression, but I think it is relevant to a certain point to contextualize the possible bias of this author.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Chris, I do not disagree that that there could be a legal element involved in this matter, and if this is the case then those with an interest in this subject should be able to carry out the requisite research to establish precisely what the law and attached regulations and definitions were. After all, we're dealing with a European power here surely the sources are there to be found.

If a legal element is involved, the whole matter becomes much more interesting.

However, considered in light of what is actually known about this knife form, what we do have in front of us is a reasonably simple engineering problem that was solved by a reasonably simple engineering application. Perhaps that engineering solution was applied because of some presently unknown, or at least indefinite, legal requirements, perhaps it was applied because users got sick of losing fingers. But there is no doubt at all that the ratchet does serve an engineering based function.

As you point out, the noise hypothesis is rather dubious.

The legal requirement hypothesis is very spongy and seems to rely on unauthenticated hearsay.

The risk control hypothesis is at least demonstrably practical.

I've got no stake in this matter at all, somewhere between little interest and no interest at all in navajas, and precious little knowledge of any of the cultural background. One could say I'm on the outside looking in, and what I see through the window is a tool (weapons are tools made for killing) that originally had a design defect that was remedied by application of engineering principles.
Perhaps there is a legal element that needs to be researched, but right now that relevant data does not seem to be available. When it does become available and legal or social reasons can be effectively argued, I might well change my mind, but right now all I can see is plain old fashioned practicality and common sense:- the blade flops open : lets fix it.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...We are in agreement that the ratchet can function as a backup to the main notch. However, it is also undeniable that it impedes silent, fast or inadvertent opening. So here we have three more functions, all related to opening...
Now the question remains which was paramount in the incorporation of the ratchet and why...
... As a hypothesis, and that is all this is, it is reasonable to posit that the local authorities required the presence a ratchet on all navajas, as suggested by my Spanish contact, to reduce their efficacy as weapons...
... I have an open mind on the subject, though I find the explanation of intimidation by the noise produced hard to accept...

No doubt the ratchet purpose is the one million dollar question, Chris. Personally, while in absence of hard evidence, i fail to digest that the multiple crack is a back up to the main notch; why would you have four, five or six back ups all in a row ?. On the other hand i can easily accept that, the knives with one only notch are those for domestic utility, while those with multiple cracks have a lethal vocation. And then we go on the ratchet purpose; the version i fancy is that related with the noise produced, not with safety ... and saying that, i would realize that such noise is made to warn the victim (?) that a navaja atack is iminent ... be it a law enforcement or some consuetudinary code of ethics.

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

Originally Posted by fernando

No doubt the ratchet purpose is the one million dollar question, Chris. Personally, while in absence of hard evidence, i fail to digest that the multiple crack is a back up to the main notch; why would you have four, five or six back ups all in a row ?. On the other hand i can easily accept that, the knives with one only notch are those for domestic utility, while those with multiple cracks have a lethal vocation. And then we go on the ratchet purpose; the version i fancy is that related with the noise produced, not with safety ... and saying that, i would realize that such noise is made to warn the victim (?) that a navaja atack is iminent ... be it a law enforcement or some consuetudinary code of ethics.

You raise some perplexing questions, and I'll rank them alongside another one; Why were so many navajas of the 20th century inscribed with the ubiquitous `TOLEDO' inscription, when they were actually being made in Albacete and Santa Cruz De Mudela? A common guess is that the tourists wanted to buy a piece of famous Toledo steel. So it may well be the same with the carraca.

What i find puzzling about the ratchets is that many navajas, not just Spanish but also Italian had this feature, yet so many had only three teeth, which came into play only at the final phases of opening or at the early stages of closure.

I think that we have to treat this mystery in the same way as we treat the equally mysterious notch at the heel of Nepalese Kukris, which also defies explanation.

Cheers
Chris

[kronckew]

just for devilment, the okapi ring pull knife comes from so. africa where they were made under license from solingen, where they are no longer made. the CS 'kudu' is a modernised version of the okapi (both in my photo earlier) a solingen version is also there. someone once told me more people die in so. africa by okapi than any other non-firearm related cause. the ratcheting noise doesn't stop anything from happening...

the levers on the navajas used to lift the lock out of engagement are not that easy to use in the best of circumstances, under pressure of an engagement with another trying to do the same to you would be rather difficult, if not impossible. might be a bit easier on a ring pull, but still....

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...That painting is titled `El Enano De La Venta’ (The Dwarf Of Sale) by Antonio Medina and is located in the Museo Taurino De Madrid.

`The Dwarf Of Sale’ is a quaint popular expression that is based on a fictional personality and which is used to describe a person who makes bombastic threats but cannot carry them out...

A little preciousness ... if i may, Chris . The term 'Venta' has a double meaning, both in castillian and portuguese; in this context would not mean 'sale', but a place where women would buy groceries and men would spend time drinking and playing cards, or the like; a sort of tavern. This would make it more consistent with the legend of the dwarf:


Parece que antes había
En la venta del Candil
Un enano que tenía
Voz equivalente a mil.

in a strict translation:


Apparently there was
In Candil's 'tavern'
A dwarf that had
Voice equivalent to a thousand.

.

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

Originally Posted by fernando

A little preciousness ... if i may, Chris . The term 'Venta' has a double meaning, both in castillian and portuguese; in this context would not mean 'sale', but a place where women would buy groceries and men would spend time drinking and playing cards, or the like; a sort of tavern. <snip>

Thank you for clarifying that Iberian idiomatic expression. I learned my Spanish in Sth America and never associated "venta" with a grocery store.

Much appreciated and,

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Rick:

That painting is titled `El Enano De La Venta’ (The Dwarf Of Sale) by Antonio Medina and is located in the Museo Taurino De Madrid.

`The Dwarf Of Sale’ is a quaint popular expression that is based on a fictional personality and which is used to describe a person who makes bombastic threats but cannot carry them out...

Just a little note, if i may, Chris; in this context, the term 'Venta' refers to a 'Inn' (sort of boarding house). In fact, the legend poem says:

"Parece que antes había
En la venta del Candil
Un enano que tenía
Voz equivalente a mil".

As if the bragging dwarf freqüented a determined Inn, that of Candil.

I accidently see that the term appears often in Cervantes work where, for one, Dom Quixote envisions all Ventas as Castles.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

Originally Posted by fernando

Just a little note, if i may, Chris; in this context, the term 'Venta' refers to a 'Inn' (sort of boarding house). In fact, the legend poem says:

"Parece que antes había
En la venta del Candil
Un enano que tenía
Voz equivalente a mil".

As if the bragging dwarf freqüented a determined Inn, that of Candil.

I accidently see that the term appears often in Cervantes work where, for one, Dom Quixote envisions all Ventas as Castles.

Thanks for the correction, but you already did so back in 2017 with post #24 of this thread.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

So sorry Chris. No wonder, Alzheimer at my age .