ratcheting mechanism on Spanish Navajas

Chris Evans · 28th June 2017, 01:27 PM

A.G. Maisey:

I apologize if I sounded a bit censorious and I do not for a moment disbelieve what you say.

The original question by Richard was re the function of the ratchet, which originated in Spain quite early in the development of the navaja. In that context, we have to keep in mind the technical limitations that those cutlers were confronted by, and the role of the said ratchet in that historical setting.

What I mean by my remarks was that the justification for your experience has to be sought in the make, typology and age of your knives. Modern knives can do all sorts of things that the antiques could not and have no bearing on the original intent behind the ratchet.

As an aside, locking clasp knives of the Spanish pattern were made in many countries besides Spain, as afar as India and Africa, and many of these were way better than those of Hispanic make. The French in particular made very good `navajas' in the 19th century and these were eagerly imported into Spain in huge quantities.

Cheers
Chris

A. G. Maisey · 28th June 2017, 01:46 PM

The navajas I was talking about were all old ones, i recall one had a horn handle, and the horn was separating because of age and neglect. I had never thought of navajas as small folders until I read the remarks in this thread.

As I have said, I have no expert knowledge of navajas, and very little interest, but I do have a background in custom knifemaking and I was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for about 12 years. My opinion of these knives as a maker is that they needed an effective method of locking the blade in place, and when these things first appeared it is unlikely that good spring steel was a practical application. I would guess that the very early ancestors of navajas were like a lot of early folders, no backspring, no locking mechanism. A lot of Italian folders are made like this even today.

The blade in a folder without a spring or locking mechanism can be made with an extension that comes down onto the back of the handle when the blade is open, and the hand holds the blade open, but this design is far from a secure lock. Probably when it became possible for small pieces of spring steel to be used the cheapest and most practical method was the notch on the back of the blade locking into a sprung catch. The ratchet would have followed this.

That's the way I look at it as a maker:- a simple, cheap, mechanical fix. Totally practical for somebody working with simple technology and tools.

Chris Evans · 28th June 2017, 02:16 PM

A. G. Maisey:

Quote:

I had never thought of navajas as small folders until I read the remarks in this thread

Well, "small" is a relative term and I did qualify it by quoting Forton's 6"-9"range for average size.

Whilst they did come in all sizes, from very small to gigantic, my remarks were in relation to the big navajas that many collectors wrongly believe were meant for use.

With all this said, we are still no closer to knowing the intended function of the ratchet.

Cheers
Chris

Rick · 28th June 2017, 04:31 PM

I thought some might enjoy this related image.

Lee · 28th June 2017, 05:45 PM

Here is a very well worn and nibbled upon navaja that I bought last year at the Brimfield flea market for $25. I have been using it to open envelopes. It is about 9½ inches long closed and the blade is about 7¼ inches long. It is loose enough now that you can close it without lifting the latch, but each ratchet point does engage and give some resistance. Put your thumb over the latch and fingers naturally around the horn scales and the blade is securely open. I prefer this design to the pull ring clasp style that was reputedly derived from it. I'd welcome any comments as to how long this old knife may have been around.

A. G. Maisey · 29th June 2017, 03:31 AM

Yeah, you're right Chris.

Intended function of ratchet?

Prevents accidental closure of blade.

Chris Evans · 29th June 2017, 05:10 AM

Rick:

That painting is titled `El Enano De La Venta’ (The Dwarf Of Sale) by Antonio Medina and is located in the Museo Taurino De Madrid.

`The Dwarf Of Sale’ is a quaint popular expression that is based on a fictional personality and which is used to describe a person who makes bombastic threats but cannot carry them out.

The size of the navaja on the ground is consistent with the majority in use, according to Forton.

Lee:

Your navaja’s style is consistent of those made in the 19th century in the city of Albacete. It has what we call a pick-lock, meaning that the backspring has to be manually lifted upwards to disengage from the lock notch in the blade. These were superseded by the ring lock around 1875, so yours is earlier.

A.G. Maisey:

That is the role of the engagement notch in the blade and not of the ratchet teeth.

Most modern navajas of the traditional pattern do not feature the ratchet and have a simple engagement notch in the heel of the blade so as to secure it in the open position.

As suggested earlier, the ratchet may form a kind of a backup in case the back-spring for some reason disengages from the blade notch. Or, its main function is to prevent the navaja from being opened easily, unintentionally or intentionally as by being flicked open.

In Forton's 490 page in depth study of the navaja, which dedicates a whole chapter to the technicalities of this knife, mention is made of the ratchet stating that it is a variant of the plain `window' lock and that it appeared in the 18th century, but without giving any reason for its raison d'etre. This I find noteworthy, because Forton knew navajas extremely well and must have felt that its intended function is lost in the mist of time.

Cheers
Chris

.

fernando · 29th June 2017, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Here is a very well worn and nibbled upon navaja that I bought last year at the Brimfield flea market for $25. I have been using it to open envelopes. It is about 9½ inches long closed and the blade is about 7¼ inches long. It is loose enough now that you can close it without lifting the latch, but each ratchet point does engage and give some resistance. Put your thumb over the latch and fingers naturally around the horn scales and the blade is securely open. I prefer this design to the pull ring clasp style that was reputedly derived from it. I'd welcome any comments as to how long this old knife may have been around.

An excelent example Lee; a genuine one for an amazing price. I guess the pull ring clasp version ended up giving place to the 'the last of mohicans' of these mechanisms; one certainly made for purposes more directed to tourists other than villagers. Another system was that like the one of your example but with a lever to easier operate the opening. This was the system that i got used to see around since my youth; the main weakness was that the lever was rather feeble and worn out very quickly.

A. G. Maisey · 30th June 2017, 12:38 AM

I'm out of this discussion now, I've pretty much said a lot more than I wanted to say anyway. We now have a group of people who are conversant with the subject and the culture, and I want to escape this thread.

However --- Fernando you raised a question that I think I should in all fairness respond to for you. Bear in mind, I have approached this question of the ratchet not from a cultural nor from a societal base, but purely from the perspective of a maker who does have some understanding of knife and tool design relative to engineering principles.

You have said:- "--- i fail to digest that the multiple crack is a back up to the main notch; why would you have four, five or six back ups all in a row ?. On the other hand i can easily accept that, the knives with one only notch are those for domestic utility, while those with multiple cracks have a lethal vocation.---"

The multiple teeth found on this ratchet are not there as a back-up in case of failure of the lock notch, but rather to prevent immediate closure of a sharp blade onto the fingers of the user:- in a case where the blade notch is dislodged from the latch, that blade will decline towards the handle, the multiple teeth on the ratchet provide a longer length of interference on closure, and thus a better chance --- in fact multiple better chances --- of stopping blade closure prior to contact with fingers.

You have noted that navajas as tools have only the notch & latch, but larger navajas, possibly intended as weapons do have the ratchet.

In old treatises on knife fighting, and on fencing with a sword, what we find is that especially in knife fighting techniques we are in fact looking at free-style fist fighting or free-style wrestling, but with a knife in one hand (or maybe both).

The knife does not get used independent of the rest of the body, nope, the whole body is involved in getting the knife to where it is intended to be. This means that the hand that does not hold the knife is also engaged in combat. That empty hand is sometimes used to grasp the knife hand of the opponent.

If there are treatises specifically on fighting with a navaja, I feel that close examination of these treatises might reveal that one of the combat techniques used in combat with a navaja was for the empty hand to grasp the opponent's knife hand and trip the latch on disengagement. The ratchet prevented complete disengagement which meant that a navaja with ratchet provided a preventive measure against such a technique.

Now I'm out of this discussion. You gentlemen with a genuine cultural interest are far better equipped to discuss this important matter than am I.

28th June 2017, 04:31 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I thought some might enjoy this related image. Attached Images

28th June 2017, 05:45 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	A very well worn and nibbled upon navaja from Brimfield Here is a very well worn and nibbled upon navaja that I bought last year at the Brimfield flea market for $25. I have been using it to open envelopes. It is about 9½ inches long closed and the blade is about 7¼ inches long. It is loose enough now that you can close it without lifting the latch, but each ratchet point does engage and give some resistance. Put your thumb over the latch and fingers naturally around the horn scales and the blade is securely open. I prefer this design to the pull ring clasp style that was reputedly derived from it. I'd welcome any comments as to how long this old knife may have been around. Attached Images

29th June 2017, 05:10 AM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Rick: That painting is titled `El Enano De La Venta’ (The Dwarf Of Sale) by Antonio Medina and is located in the Museo Taurino De Madrid. `The Dwarf Of Sale’ is a quaint popular expression that is based on a fictional personality and which is used to describe a person who makes bombastic threats but cannot carry them out. The size of the navaja on the ground is consistent with the majority in use, according to Forton. Lee: Your navaja’s style is consistent of those made in the 19th century in the city of Albacete. It has what we call a pick-lock, meaning that the backspring has to be manually lifted upwards to disengage from the lock notch in the blade. These were superseded by the ring lock around 1875, so yours is earlier. A.G. Maisey: That is the role of the engagement notch in the blade and not of the ratchet teeth. Most modern navajas of the traditional pattern do not feature the ratchet and have a simple engagement notch in the heel of the blade so as to secure it in the open position. As suggested earlier, the ratchet may form a kind of a backup in case the back-spring for some reason disengages from the blade notch. Or, its main function is to prevent the navaja from being opened easily, unintentionally or intentionally as by being flicked open. In Forton's 490 page in depth study of the navaja, which dedicates a whole chapter to the technicalities of this knife, mention is made of the ratchet stating that it is a variant of the plain `window' lock and that it appeared in the 18th century, but without giving any reason for its raison d'etre. This I find noteworthy, because Forton knew navajas extremely well and must have felt that its intended function is lost in the mist of time. Cheers Chris . Last edited by fernando; 29th June 2017 at 05:50 PM. Reason: Post edited by accident; remains the original.

28th June 2017, 01:27 PM	#1
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	A.G. Maisey: I apologize if I sounded a bit censorious and I do not for a moment disbelieve what you say. The original question by Richard was re the function of the ratchet, which originated in Spain quite early in the development of the navaja. In that context, we have to keep in mind the technical limitations that those cutlers were confronted by, and the role of the said ratchet in that historical setting. What I mean by my remarks was that the justification for your experience has to be sought in the make, typology and age of your knives. Modern knives can do all sorts of things that the antiques could not and have no bearing on the original intent behind the ratchet. As an aside, locking clasp knives of the Spanish pattern were made in many countries besides Spain, as afar as India and Africa, and many of these were way better than those of Hispanic make. The French in particular made very good `navajas' in the 19th century and these were eagerly imported into Spain in huge quantities. Cheers Chris

28th June 2017, 01:46 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	The navajas I was talking about were all old ones, i recall one had a horn handle, and the horn was separating because of age and neglect. I had never thought of navajas as small folders until I read the remarks in this thread. As I have said, I have no expert knowledge of navajas, and very little interest, but I do have a background in custom knifemaking and I was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for about 12 years. My opinion of these knives as a maker is that they needed an effective method of locking the blade in place, and when these things first appeared it is unlikely that good spring steel was a practical application. I would guess that the very early ancestors of navajas were like a lot of early folders, no backspring, no locking mechanism. A lot of Italian folders are made like this even today. The blade in a folder without a spring or locking mechanism can be made with an extension that comes down onto the back of the handle when the blade is open, and the hand holds the blade open, but this design is far from a secure lock. Probably when it became possible for small pieces of spring steel to be used the cheapest and most practical method was the notch on the back of the blade locking into a sprung catch. The ratchet would have followed this. That's the way I look at it as a maker:- a simple, cheap, mechanical fix. Totally practical for somebody working with simple technology and tools.

29th June 2017, 03:31 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yeah, you're right Chris. Intended function of ratchet? Prevents accidental closure of blade.

30th June 2017, 12:38 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I'm out of this discussion now, I've pretty much said a lot more than I wanted to say anyway. We now have a group of people who are conversant with the subject and the culture, and I want to escape this thread. However --- Fernando you raised a question that I think I should in all fairness respond to for you. Bear in mind, I have approached this question of the ratchet not from a cultural nor from a societal base, but purely from the perspective of a maker who does have some understanding of knife and tool design relative to engineering principles. You have said:- "--- i fail to digest that the multiple crack is a back up to the main notch; why would you have four, five or six back ups all in a row ?. On the other hand i can easily accept that, the knives with one only notch are those for domestic utility, while those with multiple cracks have a lethal vocation.---" The multiple teeth found on this ratchet are not there as a back-up in case of failure of the lock notch, but rather to prevent immediate closure of a sharp blade onto the fingers of the user:- in a case where the blade notch is dislodged from the latch, that blade will decline towards the handle, the multiple teeth on the ratchet provide a longer length of interference on closure, and thus a better chance --- in fact multiple better chances --- of stopping blade closure prior to contact with fingers. You have noted that navajas as tools have only the notch & latch, but larger navajas, possibly intended as weapons do have the ratchet. In old treatises on knife fighting, and on fencing with a sword, what we find is that especially in knife fighting techniques we are in fact looking at free-style fist fighting or free-style wrestling, but with a knife in one hand (or maybe both). The knife does not get used independent of the rest of the body, nope, the whole body is involved in getting the knife to where it is intended to be. This means that the hand that does not hold the knife is also engaged in combat. That empty hand is sometimes used to grasp the knife hand of the opponent. If there are treatises specifically on fighting with a navaja, I feel that close examination of these treatises might reveal that one of the combat techniques used in combat with a navaja was for the empty hand to grasp the opponent's knife hand and trip the latch on disengagement. The ratchet prevented complete disengagement which meant that a navaja with ratchet provided a preventive measure against such a technique. Now I'm out of this discussion. You gentlemen with a genuine cultural interest are far better equipped to discuss this important matter than am I.