Small Ottoman? Persian? Kard.

mariusgmioc · 28th June 2017, 09:47 AM

Very beautiful example of an Ottoman Bichaq from the Balcans (Bosnia?).

They come in a rather wide range of sizes. Yours can be for a boy but it still falls within the normal range of sizes.

Kubur · 28th June 2017, 10:20 AM

I'm very suspicious about your kard or bichaq.
In red, Ottoman Balkans features, no explanations needed.
In green, Indian features:
the flowers design
the fact that the scabbard tip is in one piece, on the Ottoman examples it's another part.
The mid part of the knife is very Indian to me.
Finaly this knife is an excellent condition.
Someone knows if Indians are doing copies of Ottoman weapons??
I just ask...

Norman McCormick · 28th June 2017, 10:22 AM

Thanks guys for your insight and comments.
Regards,
Norman.

motan · 28th June 2017, 11:52 AM

Hi Norman,
To me, it looks like a Ottoman Greek dagger. Having said that, it is not a typical one because most of them have a more Bichaq-like shape and the silver engraving is done with deeper relief, more like the one discussed here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10027
In my mind, the style of decoration is not Persian but shows European influence, and the all-silver-plated look is certainly not Persian, but Greek-Ottoman. But I might be wrong, of course.

motan · 28th June 2017, 11:57 AM

After a closer look, I have to share Kubur's suspition. The gold koftgari does not look right and it COULD be an old simple kard blade re-hilted in India in general Ottoman-Balkan style

estcrh · 28th June 2017, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Finaly this knife is an excellent condition.
Someone knows if Indians are doing copies of Ottoman weapons??
I just ask...

They can and have copied a wide range of weapons and armor. I always look for signs of wear, there should always be some wear on an old blade and scabbard. I have seen quite a few with beautiful gold work that looks like it was applied yesterday, not a hundred years ago, as beautiful as they are I pass for more used looking weapons with no doubt of authenticity.

Norman McCormick · 28th June 2017, 05:54 PM

Hi,
Some more images that might help the deliberations.
Regards,
Norman.

estcrh · 28th June 2017, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Some more images that might help the deliberations.
Regards,
Norman.

The blade looks good to me, I see the signs of wear that one would expect to see on an older blade. Assuming that the scabbard and fittings are original to the blade the size is not unusual, I have a kard that is 10 1/2" with a 7 1/2".
blade, I also have a kard that is 17.5 inches long, quite a wide range of sizes.

Here is a link to many kard examples.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...-knife-dagger/

Battara · 28th June 2017, 06:34 PM

Thanks for the pics. I am now more convinced that the piece is Ottoman, but came into the hands of a Greek who took off the cartouche - a common practice among Greeks who got Ottoman pieces.

Sometimes the Ottoman and Indian kards are hard to distinguish due to trade and cross cultural influences.

mariusgmioc · 28th June 2017, 07:51 PM

In my oppinion there is no question about its authenticity as an Ottoman Bichaq. I don't see anything to raise suspicion.

I have myself one with a single piece silver scabbard as it was quite common.

Now, where exactly was it made is another issue. My bet is for Bosnia but it can also be Greece or even Turkey, as both smiths and crafts travelled freely within the Otooman empire.

I agree with Battara that it was probably made by a Muslim smith, and at some point the Turkish/Arab/Farsi cartouche was deliberately removed by a Christian Zelot owner.

PS: Regarding Kubur's question about the flowers... well, that's precisely why I supect it was made in Bosnia... or somewhere in the Balkans as opposed to continental Turkey where I would expect diferent type of decorations.

PPS: I might be obsessed but I would check the blade for wootz.

Kubur · 28th June 2017, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Some more images that might help the deliberations.
Regards,
Norman.

Thank you, You changed my mind.
This knife looks old and authentic.
The last thing that I don't understand is the flowers and the decorations.

I will see in the book Balkan arms.
Congrat. Norman, the same knife page 255 in the book previously mentionned.
So your knife should be from the Balkans....

28th June 2017, 10:20 AM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I'm very suspicious about your kard or bichaq. In red, Ottoman Balkans features, no explanations needed. In green, Indian features: the flowers design the fact that the scabbard tip is in one piece, on the Ottoman examples it's another part. The mid part of the knife is very Indian to me. Finaly this knife is an excellent condition. Someone knows if Indians are doing copies of Ottoman weapons?? I just ask... Attached Images

28th June 2017, 05:54 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi, Some more images that might help the deliberations. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

28th June 2017, 07:51 PM	#10
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	In my oppinion there is no question about its authenticity as an Ottoman Bichaq. I don't see anything to raise suspicion. I have myself one with a single piece silver scabbard as it was quite common. Now, where exactly was it made is another issue. My bet is for Bosnia but it can also be Greece or even Turkey, as both smiths and crafts travelled freely within the Otooman empire. I agree with Battara that it was probably made by a Muslim smith, and at some point the Turkish/Arab/Farsi cartouche was deliberately removed by a Christian Zelot owner. PS: Regarding Kubur's question about the flowers... well, that's precisely why I supect it was made in Bosnia... or somewhere in the Balkans as opposed to continental Turkey where I would expect diferent type of decorations. PPS: I might be obsessed but I would check the blade for wootz. Attached Images

28th June 2017, 09:47 AM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Very beautiful example of an Ottoman Bichaq from the Balcans (Bosnia?). They come in a rather wide range of sizes. Yours can be for a boy but it still falls within the normal range of sizes.

28th June 2017, 10:22 AM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Thanks guys for your insight and comments. Regards, Norman.

28th June 2017, 11:52 AM	#4
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Norman, To me, it looks like a Ottoman Greek dagger. Having said that, it is not a typical one because most of them have a more Bichaq-like shape and the silver engraving is done with deeper relief, more like the one discussed here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10027 In my mind, the style of decoration is not Persian but shows European influence, and the all-silver-plated look is certainly not Persian, but Greek-Ottoman. But I might be wrong, of course.

28th June 2017, 11:57 AM	#5
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	After a closer look, I have to share Kubur's suspition. The gold koftgari does not look right and it COULD be an old simple kard blade re-hilted in India in general Ottoman-Balkan style

28th June 2017, 06:34 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Thanks for the pics. I am now more convinced that the piece is Ottoman, but came into the hands of a Greek who took off the cartouche - a common practice among Greeks who got Ottoman pieces. Sometimes the Ottoman and Indian kards are hard to distinguish due to trade and cross cultural influences.