Medieval Weapons and Men At Arms.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd June 2017, 11:14 AM

In support of this thread please have a quick look at http://deremilitari.org/2013/11/the-...l-perspective/

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th June 2017, 04:28 PM

One Medieval weapon I know little about is The Bow and Arrow. I found an interesting read here at ~

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

The report opens with Quote" The English longbow was a powerful medieval type of longbow (a tall bow for archery) about 6 ft (1.8 m) long used by the English and Welsh for hunting and as a weapon in medieval warfare. English use of longbows was effective against the French during the Hundred Years' War, particularly at the start of the war in the battles of Sluys (1340), Crécy (1346), and Poitiers (1356), and perhaps most famously at the Battle of Agincourt (1415).

They were less successful after this, with longbowmen having their lines broken at the Battle of Verneuil (1424), and being completely routed at the Battle of Patay (1429) when they were charged before they had set up their defensive position." Unquote.

It is an excellent report on The English Longbow...which to some is a bit of a misnomer since it tends to be associated with Welsh Bowmen... but interestingly if the Bow was Yew it presumeably came from France in ships carrying another fine French product...Port !

but I would not suppose it could be called a French Bow

The above reference on Range says Quote"
The range of the medieval weapon is not accurately known, with much depending on both the power of the bow and the type of arrow. It has been suggested that a flight arrow of a professional archer of Edward III's time would reach 400 yd (370 m) but the longest mark shot at on the London practice ground of Finsbury Fields in the 16th century was 345 yd (315 m).

In 1542, Henry VIII set a minimum practice range for adults using flight arrows of 220 yd (200 m); ranges below this had to be shot with heavy arrows. Modern experiments broadly concur with these historical ranges. A 667 N (150 lbf) Mary Rose replica longbow was able to shoot a 53.6 g (1.89 oz) arrow 328 m (359 yd) and a 95.9 g (3.38 oz) a distance of 249.9 m (273.3 yd). In 2012, Joe Gibbs shot a 2.25 oz (64 g) livery arrow 292 yd (267 m) with a 170 lbf yew bow. The effective combat range of longbowmen was generally lower than what could be achieved on the practice range as sustained shooting was tiring and the rigors of campaigning would sap soldiers' strength.

Writing 30 years after the Mary Rose sank, Barnabe Rich estimated that if 1000 English archers were mustered then after one week only 100 of them would be able to shoot farther than 200 paces, while 200 would not be able to shoot farther than 180 paces".Unquote

In a contemporary account it goes on to describe viz

by Gerald of Wales commenting on the power of the Welsh longbow in the 12th century: One of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron chausses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal.

Below The Battle of Crecy. and a Longbow illustrated at reference.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th June 2017, 06:29 PM

Bow Ranges~

I was looking at a comparison in Bow ranges and comparing the English Longbow to others...including the Turkish Foot Bow...which I assume is called that because of the need to use your foot to press on the bow in order to apply sufficient force to bend it so as top apply the bowstring...The amazing range of the latter weapon was never tested against the English Bow but achieved far longer range distances and easily plus of 400 yards and refined with modern methods to nearly double that today...

See http://www.turkishculture.org/lifest...554.htm?type=1

The detail whilst placed here for the Boffins out there is interesting not least in the peculiar shape of the Bows but also the aerodynamic type of Arrows used in the Turkish example...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th June 2017, 06:49 PM

Please feel free to add any web or Library references....

For Example Crecy, Sluys and Azincourt were landslide victories for the English Archers but Formigny was a disaster caused by undefended archers positions being broken and over run causing a decisive rout. See https://www.thoughtco.com/hundred-ye...rmigny-2360754

Below the English are routed at Formigny but at Sluys the rainstorm of English arrows destroyed the French crammed on board ships.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th June 2017, 07:17 PM

I mentioned earlier the phenomenal Turkish Foot Bow and note that there is a video showing how to string it...indeed using the feet in a gymnastic piece of magic best viewed at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVPs9zRASfU

and viewable on Forum Library at #26 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Longbow

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th June 2017, 07:34 PM

PATAY 18 June 1429.

Patay was to the French what Agincourt was to the English. It turned into a disaster and a rout that claimed half the English Army through a mistake in the defences of the Longbow men. It was an almost reverse of Agincourt enabling the French heavy horse to utterly grind up the Archers who had only attained a half baked defence that the French Cavalry swept aside.

See http://www.longbow-archers.com/historypatay.html

From the above reference I Quote"The English position was therefore not fully consolidated by the time it was attacked. Protection offered by the terrain was minor and crucially for the longbow men there were no features that protected the flanks. All the basic ingredients of a well-protected position that had been so visibly present at Crécy, Poitiers and Agincourt, were absent at Patay".Unquote.

See also https://www.thoughtco.com/aftermath-...rs-war-1221904

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th June 2017, 07:38 PM

The next battle chosen for its importance though I have to say I never heard of it !!

The Battle of Bouvines in 1214

On July 12, 1214, Philip II Augustus, the King of France, defeated the combined forces of emperor Otto IV, the count of Flanders, and King John of England, near Bouvines in northern France. For a detailed analysis of this battle, see the Xenophon Group Military History Database. Several sources give detailed accounts of the battle. To key in to the details simply run your mouse over any line and apply it to your web search.

The Marchiennes account of the battle of Bouvines

Anonymous of Bethune's account of the battle of Bouvines

The battle of Bouvines according to the Phlippiad by William of Breton

Roger of Wendover's account of the battle of Bouvines

The battle of Bouvines according to William of Breton (prose account)

The battle of Bouvines according to Philippe Mousket

The battle of Bouvines according to the Minstel of Reims

The battle of Bouvines according to shorter chronicles

Below; The Surrender.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th July 2017, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Bow Ranges~

I was looking at a comparison in Bow ranges and comparing the English Longbow to others...including the Turkish Foot Bow...which I assume is called that because of the need to use your foot to press on the bow in order to apply sufficient force to bend it so as top apply the bowstring...The amazing range of the latter weapon was never tested against the English Bow but achieved far longer range distances and easily plus of 400 yards and refined with modern methods to nearly double that today...

See http://www.turkishculture.org/lifest...554.htm?type=1

The detail whilst placed here for the Boffins out there is interesting not least in the peculiar shape of the Bows but also the aerodynamic type of Arrows used in the Turkish example...

For interest and Library I place books on Archery as I have done for Ethnographic...The Blue book and the book with the Arab archer are the same with the latter as a reprint. The Other book is the European relevant book... all placed for comparison and interest.

NeilUK · 9th July 2017, 03:52 PM

Hello Fernando, the posts of ms illustrations by Ibrahiim and yourself is brilliant - thank you. I am currently researching 2-hand swords and noticed a couple of good images among your posts, especially the last image in #7 and the first in #8 (17-18 June). I assume they are both from a ms of Froissart's chronicles; do you have an exact reference for them? or even better a higher resolution photo which I could use. I already have the earlier one from the Jean de Wavrin chronicle, but not these. I would be most grateful for any help you can give me.
Kind regards, Neil

fernando · 9th July 2017, 05:06 PM

Hi Neil,
I don't keep an organized file on this material as i have edited the images for saving and uploading and the original data is gonne. I would advance however that, the two images you refer are also from Wavrin's chronicle. The source i picked them from is the chronicle itself and has no higher resolution; but there is an optional zoom in the page that i ignore if it compensates to switch.
You can see for yourself HERE

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th July 2017, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilUK

Hello Fernando, the posts of ms illustrations by Ibrahiim and yourself is brilliant - thank you. I am currently researching 2-hand swords and noticed a couple of good images among your posts, especially the last image in #7 and the first in #8 (17-18 June). I assume they are both from a ms of Froissart's chronicles; do you have an exact reference for them? or even better a higher resolution photo which I could use. I already have the earlier one from the Jean de Wavrin chronicle, but not these. I would be most grateful for any help you can give me.
Kind regards, Neil

Salaams NeilUK~ Thank you for your kind comments about the Medieval Thread. Actually I was looking at a good website on Two Handed swords http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html#.WWLJCmKGPIU

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th July 2017, 01:41 AM

There is a very good website at

http://www.historyextra.com/article/...cant-agincourt

which states that there are 9 more important medieval battles than Agincourt.... and which I commend to members.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

23rd June 2017, 11:14 AM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	In support of this thread please have a quick look at http://deremilitari.org/2013/11/the-...l-perspective/ Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 23rd June 2017 at 02:22 PM.

25th June 2017, 06:49 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Please feel free to add any web or Library references.... For Example Crecy, Sluys and Azincourt were landslide victories for the English Archers but Formigny was a disaster caused by undefended archers positions being broken and over run causing a decisive rout. See https://www.thoughtco.com/hundred-ye...rmigny-2360754 Below the English are routed at Formigny but at Sluys the rainstorm of English arrows destroyed the French crammed on board ships. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th June 2017 at 07:46 PM.

26th June 2017, 07:34 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	PATAY 18 June 1429. Patay was to the French what Agincourt was to the English. It turned into a disaster and a rout that claimed half the English Army through a mistake in the defences of the Longbow men. It was an almost reverse of Agincourt enabling the French heavy horse to utterly grind up the Archers who had only attained a half baked defence that the French Cavalry swept aside. See http://www.longbow-archers.com/historypatay.html From the above reference I Quote"The English position was therefore not fully consolidated by the time it was attacked. Protection offered by the terrain was minor and crucially for the longbow men there were no features that protected the flanks. All the basic ingredients of a well-protected position that had been so visibly present at Crécy, Poitiers and Agincourt, were absent at Patay".Unquote. See also https://www.thoughtco.com/aftermath-...rs-war-1221904 Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 26th June 2017 at 07:50 PM.

9th July 2017, 05:06 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Neil, I don't keep an organized file on this material as i have edited the images for saving and uploading and the original data is gonne. I would advance however that, the two images you refer are also from Wavrin's chronicle. The source i picked them from is the chronicle itself and has no higher resolution; but there is an optional zoom in the page that i ignore if it compensates to switch. You can see for yourself HERE Last edited by fernando; 10th July 2017 at 04:53 PM.

25th June 2017, 04:28 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	One Medieval weapon I know little about is The Bow and Arrow. I found an interesting read here at ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow The report opens with Quote" The English longbow was a powerful medieval type of longbow (a tall bow for archery) about 6 ft (1.8 m) long used by the English and Welsh for hunting and as a weapon in medieval warfare. English use of longbows was effective against the French during the Hundred Years' War, particularly at the start of the war in the battles of Sluys (1340), Crécy (1346), and Poitiers (1356), and perhaps most famously at the Battle of Agincourt (1415). They were less successful after this, with longbowmen having their lines broken at the Battle of Verneuil (1424), and being completely routed at the Battle of Patay (1429) when they were charged before they had set up their defensive position." Unquote. It is an excellent report on The English Longbow...which to some is a bit of a misnomer since it tends to be associated with Welsh Bowmen... but interestingly if the Bow was Yew it presumeably came from France in ships carrying another fine French product...Port ! but I would not suppose it could be called a French Bow The above reference on Range says Quote" The range of the medieval weapon is not accurately known, with much depending on both the power of the bow and the type of arrow. It has been suggested that a flight arrow of a professional archer of Edward III's time would reach 400 yd (370 m) but the longest mark shot at on the London practice ground of Finsbury Fields in the 16th century was 345 yd (315 m). In 1542, Henry VIII set a minimum practice range for adults using flight arrows of 220 yd (200 m); ranges below this had to be shot with heavy arrows. Modern experiments broadly concur with these historical ranges. A 667 N (150 lbf) Mary Rose replica longbow was able to shoot a 53.6 g (1.89 oz) arrow 328 m (359 yd) and a 95.9 g (3.38 oz) a distance of 249.9 m (273.3 yd). In 2012, Joe Gibbs shot a 2.25 oz (64 g) livery arrow 292 yd (267 m) with a 170 lbf yew bow. The effective combat range of longbowmen was generally lower than what could be achieved on the practice range as sustained shooting was tiring and the rigors of campaigning would sap soldiers' strength. Writing 30 years after the Mary Rose sank, Barnabe Rich estimated that if 1000 English archers were mustered then after one week only 100 of them would be able to shoot farther than 200 paces, while 200 would not be able to shoot farther than 180 paces".Unquote In a contemporary account it goes on to describe viz by Gerald of Wales commenting on the power of the Welsh longbow in the 12th century: One of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron chausses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal. Below The Battle of Crecy. and a Longbow illustrated at reference. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th June 2017 at 04:41 PM.

25th June 2017, 06:29 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Bow Ranges~ I was looking at a comparison in Bow ranges and comparing the English Longbow to others...including the Turkish Foot Bow...which I assume is called that because of the need to use your foot to press on the bow in order to apply sufficient force to bend it so as top apply the bowstring...The amazing range of the latter weapon was never tested against the English Bow but achieved far longer range distances and easily plus of 400 yards and refined with modern methods to nearly double that today... See http://www.turkishculture.org/lifest...554.htm?type=1 The detail whilst placed here for the Boffins out there is interesting not least in the peculiar shape of the Bows but also the aerodynamic type of Arrows used in the Turkish example...

25th June 2017, 07:17 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I mentioned earlier the phenomenal Turkish Foot Bow and note that there is a video showing how to string it...indeed using the feet in a gymnastic piece of magic best viewed at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVPs9zRASfU and viewable on Forum Library at #26 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Longbow

27th June 2017, 07:38 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The next battle chosen for its importance though I have to say I never heard of it !! The Battle of Bouvines in 1214 On July 12, 1214, Philip II Augustus, the King of France, defeated the combined forces of emperor Otto IV, the count of Flanders, and King John of England, near Bouvines in northern France. For a detailed analysis of this battle, see the Xenophon Group Military History Database. Several sources give detailed accounts of the battle. To key in to the details simply run your mouse over any line and apply it to your web search. The Marchiennes account of the battle of Bouvines Anonymous of Bethune's account of the battle of Bouvines The battle of Bouvines according to the Phlippiad by William of Breton Roger of Wendover's account of the battle of Bouvines The battle of Bouvines according to William of Breton (prose account) The battle of Bouvines according to Philippe Mousket The battle of Bouvines according to the Minstel of Reims The battle of Bouvines according to shorter chronicles Below; The Surrender. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 27th June 2017 at 07:48 PM.

9th July 2017, 03:52 PM	#9
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 126	Hello Fernando, the posts of ms illustrations by Ibrahiim and yourself is brilliant - thank you. I am currently researching 2-hand swords and noticed a couple of good images among your posts, especially the last image in #7 and the first in #8 (17-18 June). I assume they are both from a ms of Froissart's chronicles; do you have an exact reference for them? or even better a higher resolution photo which I could use. I already have the earlier one from the Jean de Wavrin chronicle, but not these. I would be most grateful for any help you can give me. Kind regards, Neil

10th July 2017, 01:41 AM	#12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	There is a very good website at http://www.historyextra.com/article/...cant-agincourt which states that there are 9 more important medieval battles than Agincourt.... and which I commend to members. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.