Miniature or Child Shibriya

Kubur · 14th June 2017, 01:01 PM

Of course, it's an old story, even with European arms.
Each time that we have something short or small, people say it was done for a child or a woman.
This is nonsense!

But the miniature weapons are something else... like the miniature yatagan published few weeks ago... For decoration or simply letter openers...

motan · 14th June 2017, 11:54 PM

Women? Children? Saylors? While the above may explain some daggers, it can not explain this phenomenon as a whole.
In my view, it comes down to one thing: can the hilt fit well into the user's hand? If this is not the case, then the dagger is of little practical value! This topic is not new to this forum- see, among others http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=size+matter).
Most small daggers have a small hilt. Many are too small even for a child's hand. I chose an example that is not even very small as a whole, but the hilt is far too small for the hand, even of a small person. It a Tblisi dagger from around 1900 (kindly indentified by forum members). Instead of showing my hairy hands on the forum again, I show it next to a standard-size playing card. Also, I have not seen any evidence in writing or picture of women or children carrying a small dagger. In the few pictures of children with daggers I know, they carry a full dize version.
What were they made for? Probably for some ceremonial/decorative purpose. I don't know. However, I don't think that small daggers can be easily explained by seemingly reasonable, but unrealistic arguments.
So, how big is the hilt of your shibriya? Can it be easily held in the hand?

Kubur · 18th June 2017, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Women? Children? Saylors? While the above may explain some daggers, it can not explain this phenomenon as a whole.
In my view, it comes down to one thing: can the hilt fit well into the user's hand? If this is not the case, then the dagger is of little practical value! This topic is not new to this forum- see, among others http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=size+matter)

Hi,
Well this doesn't work either.
Look at the Tibetan daggers
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...utanese+Dossum
Some hilts are very small and unconfortable.

motan · 18th June 2017, 11:01 AM

Hi Kubur, I am merely stating the obvious facts. I do not mean to play down the value of these daggers - after all I own some of these too - I would only like to know why daggers like this were produced and I don't find any of the current suggestions convincing. Even when they WERE used, why make them uncomfortable? Some very small daggers were used as utility knifes, but as weapons? Not very likely. I would have said to the maker "could you make it a just a little bigger please?"

ariel · 18th June 2017, 11:28 AM

Russian Fora routinely discuss Caucasian kindjals of a decent size but with very small handles. Many participants bring forth evidences of the practice of gripping the handle with 3 fingers only. Indeed, many very utilitarian daggers have very small handles: Finnish Puukko killed quire a lot of people in the beloved pastime of old Finland, i.e. drunken brawls. Beyond that I have no explanation other than decorative purpose of such items.

motan · 18th June 2017, 12:02 PM

Yes Ariel, but Puukos and some others are more knife-like, do not have a wide pommel and are not wider near the blade. They are easier to hold even when small. I have a very small Creatian knife that has been re-sharpened many times, but I think it was used for peeling apples and such.

14th June 2017, 11:54 PM	#2
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Women? Children? Saylors? While the above may explain some daggers, it can not explain this phenomenon as a whole. In my view, it comes down to one thing: can the hilt fit well into the user's hand? If this is not the case, then the dagger is of little practical value! This topic is not new to this forum- see, among others http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=size+matter). Most small daggers have a small hilt. Many are too small even for a child's hand. I chose an example that is not even very small as a whole, but the hilt is far too small for the hand, even of a small person. It a Tblisi dagger from around 1900 (kindly indentified by forum members). Instead of showing my hairy hands on the forum again, I show it next to a standard-size playing card. Also, I have not seen any evidence in writing or picture of women or children carrying a small dagger. In the few pictures of children with daggers I know, they carry a full dize version. What were they made for? Probably for some ceremonial/decorative purpose. I don't know. However, I don't think that small daggers can be easily explained by seemingly reasonable, but unrealistic arguments. So, how big is the hilt of your shibriya? Can it be easily held in the hand? Attached Images

18th June 2017, 11:01 AM	#4
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	to Kubur Hi Kubur, I am merely stating the obvious facts. I do not mean to play down the value of these daggers - after all I own some of these too - I would only like to know why daggers like this were produced and I don't find any of the current suggestions convincing. Even when they WERE used, why make them uncomfortable? Some very small daggers were used as utility knifes, but as weapons? Not very likely. I would have said to the maker "could you make it a just a little bigger please?"

14th June 2017, 01:01 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Of course, it's an old story, even with European arms. Each time that we have something short or small, people say it was done for a child or a woman. This is nonsense! But the miniature weapons are something else... like the miniature yatagan published few weeks ago... For decoration or simply letter openers...

18th June 2017, 11:28 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Russian Fora routinely discuss Caucasian kindjals of a decent size but with very small handles. Many participants bring forth evidences of the practice of gripping the handle with 3 fingers only. Indeed, many very utilitarian daggers have very small handles: Finnish Puukko killed quire a lot of people in the beloved pastime of old Finland, i.e. drunken brawls. Beyond that I have no explanation other than decorative purpose of such items.

18th June 2017, 12:02 PM	#6
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Yes Ariel, but Puukos and some others are more knife-like, do not have a wide pommel and are not wider near the blade. They are easier to hold even when small. I have a very small Creatian knife that has been re-sharpened many times, but I think it was used for peeling apples and such.