Weapons of the Chinese Green Standard Army

josh stout · 4th June 2017, 12:39 AM

Great job Peter!

There are so many vague names out there; it is nice to see names, illustrations, and specifications from a primary text. The piandao looking like a naganata, rather than a single-handed curved saber, was a surprise. Handle length does not matter nearly as much as blade shape.
Thanks

Philip · 4th June 2017, 06:53 AM

Good observation, Josh. In trying to classify Vietnamese hilt weapons, I come across the same thing. Arms historians who speak Vietnamese have pointed out that the names follow the blade types. In fact, they couldn't tell me any specific terms applicable to "guom" (sabers with narrow blades similar to the Chinese willow-leaf type) with enclosed knucklebow hilts vs those with open hilts utilizing a discoid hand-guard. But the distinction between a "guom" and a "dao" (pronounced "yao" in southern speech, "zao" in northern) is clear -- the later has a broad blade usually with a clipped point and a gradual widening outward from the hilt.

Unfortunately these guys all have a modern education in the language whose official written form has been romanized for many generations now; the Chinese characters have fallen out of use. It's clear what character corresponds to "dao", but no one could tell me what the ideograph for "guom" is. "Kiem" (double edged straight sword) is obviously the equivalent of "jian" (or Cantonese "gim", Japanese "ken"). I once owned a ceremonial ivory-hilted guom with a dedicatory inscription engraved in Chinese on the grip, and despite the thing being obviously a saber, the character "jian" was used in it to refer to the weapon!

Despite this bit of confusion, the logic of Vietnamese terminology is pretty easy to follow. Not so with Korean, which seems less consistent and straightforward, but let's save that for another thread.

Peter Dekker · 5th June 2017, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh stout

Great job Peter!

There are so many vague names out there; it is nice to see names, illustrations, and specifications from a primary text. The piandao looking like a naganata, rather than a single-handed curved saber, was a surprise. Handle length does not matter nearly as much as blade shape.
Thanks

Thanks!

And yes, a lot of vagueness is involved. Sometimes even in official texts! For one it seems that the Huangchao Liqi Tushi, a standard work on ceremonial regalia and arms, used some nonstandard language that you don't see in the operational texts.

The piandao for example indeed comes in several forms. There is mention of a saber shaped piandao (㓲刀) in the 1759 Huangchao Liqi Tushi that is used by rattan shield troops.

Regulations on manufacture and repair of military equipment for the provinces consistently mention rattan shields in conjunction with paidao or shield-saber. A look into the instructions for craftsmen to produce these, we find that at least in 1770, these were just another name for the piandao in the Huangchao Liqi Tushi.

And then of course my above list shows two more piandao, one quite like a large dadao and another of a naginata-type. They use a different character for pian but both with the same meaning.

As for the jian (劍) / dao (刀) classification, interesting how countries near China were not as strict. Kendo also comes to mind, which is clearly focused around the practice of the Japanese katana (刀) yet calls itself the way of the 剣, which is a Japanese simplification of 劍 (jian).

josh stout · 9th June 2017, 01:20 AM

The piandao seems to have substantial documentation but very few examples. I once owned one of utilitarian manufacture with a medium length blade (60-62cm), very thick at the guard (~1cm) that was clearly meant to be used one handed. It was a smooth curve to an acute point with a typical village made disk guard and Chinese elm handle. The blade was excellent steel but had a crack in the edge from heavy use. It seemed appropriate for the “tiger men” who supposedly used such things.

There is also a rare giant two-handed version that I suppose would also be called a piandao (shuangshu piandao?). I have an example of somewhat rustic manufacture but very heavily built. I have a feeling the front lines didn’t spend too much on weapon decoration. There is supposedly a much nicer version in a Russian museum listed as a “Chinese Cavalry saber”, but I think these were exclusively the weapons of foot soldiers. As a mutual friend said, “these were used under horses, not on top of them.”

josh stout · 9th June 2017, 01:37 AM

It's interesting to see where the words go. I think "ken" in Japanese is a sort of generic word for sword, despite it still being understood as a double edged temple sword. My teacher, speaking Hakka Chinese pronounces dadao like the Japanese daito. Double sabers are “shangto”. A sword is, of course, a “gim”.

4th June 2017, 06:53 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	ID'ing by blade type vs hilt form Good observation, Josh. In trying to classify Vietnamese hilt weapons, I come across the same thing. Arms historians who speak Vietnamese have pointed out that the names follow the blade types. In fact, they couldn't tell me any specific terms applicable to "guom" (sabers with narrow blades similar to the Chinese willow-leaf type) with enclosed knucklebow hilts vs those with open hilts utilizing a discoid hand-guard. But the distinction between a "guom" and a "dao" (pronounced "yao" in southern speech, "zao" in northern) is clear -- the later has a broad blade usually with a clipped point and a gradual widening outward from the hilt. Unfortunately these guys all have a modern education in the language whose official written form has been romanized for many generations now; the Chinese characters have fallen out of use. It's clear what character corresponds to "dao", but no one could tell me what the ideograph for "guom" is. "Kiem" (double edged straight sword) is obviously the equivalent of "jian" (or Cantonese "gim", Japanese "ken"). I once owned a ceremonial ivory-hilted guom with a dedicatory inscription engraved in Chinese on the grip, and despite the thing being obviously a saber, the character "jian" was used in it to refer to the weapon! Despite this bit of confusion, the logic of Vietnamese terminology is pretty easy to follow. Not so with Korean, which seems less consistent and straightforward, but let's save that for another thread.

4th June 2017, 12:39 AM	#1
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Great job Peter! There are so many vague names out there; it is nice to see names, illustrations, and specifications from a primary text. The piandao looking like a naganata, rather than a single-handed curved saber, was a surprise. Handle length does not matter nearly as much as blade shape. Thanks

9th June 2017, 01:20 AM	#4
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	The piandao seems to have substantial documentation but very few examples. I once owned one of utilitarian manufacture with a medium length blade (60-62cm), very thick at the guard (~1cm) that was clearly meant to be used one handed. It was a smooth curve to an acute point with a typical village made disk guard and Chinese elm handle. The blade was excellent steel but had a crack in the edge from heavy use. It seemed appropriate for the “tiger men” who supposedly used such things. There is also a rare giant two-handed version that I suppose would also be called a piandao (shuangshu piandao?). I have an example of somewhat rustic manufacture but very heavily built. I have a feeling the front lines didn’t spend too much on weapon decoration. There is supposedly a much nicer version in a Russian museum listed as a “Chinese Cavalry saber”, but I think these were exclusively the weapons of foot soldiers. As a mutual friend said, “these were used under horses, not on top of them.”

9th June 2017, 01:37 AM	#5
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	It's interesting to see where the words go. I think "ken" in Japanese is a sort of generic word for sword, despite it still being understood as a double edged temple sword. My teacher, speaking Hakka Chinese pronounces dadao like the Japanese daito. Double sabers are “shangto”. A sword is, of course, a “gim”.