Planning to make a wrongko

Rick · 12th May 2017, 03:13 PM

I think shellac will give you a nicer finish.

kai · 12th May 2017, 05:49 PM

Hello Johan,

That doesn't look bad at all! Certainly not a perfect copy and with some shortcomings for traditionally minded connoisseurs. More than adequate clothes for your keris though - you can certainly be proud having done this with a tough wood which seems to have quite nice figuring, too!

Traditional finish for keris is shellac (no multiple layers needed); make sure to fill the pores with wood dust during the final polishing steps!

The color is probably close to Kemuning limau (yellow kemuning wood); you could leave it as is if you prefer this color.

You could also utilize some spare bits of the same wood for testing whether using boiled linseed oil first and shellac later will make both woods looking even better.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 13th May 2017, 12:16 AM

That's actually not too bad Johan, you've got the overall form pretty good, it looks like what it is intended to be. We must never forget that even in the societies where these things came from, not everybody was a master.

Your efforts to date are good Johan.

I will offer the following:-

1) you can only have two sorts of lines:- a straight line or a part of a circle; lumps, bumps, wandering lines are definitely not permitted, and that applies to any sort of work of this nature.

2) the heavy ridge that interrupts smooth transition from the face to the top of the piece must go, the face of the wrongko from its lower edge to the top where the surface turns inward should be a smooth curve, in other words a part of a circle --- a very large circle, but a circle just the same. This "part of a circle " idea has been quoted as a dictum for as long as people have made things, but what nobody ever seems to point out is that it is really "parts of circles", for example, in a long curve you can get variation in the progression of the curve, each part of the curve can reflect a different radius, but even so, that curve must be a smooth progression, so that you cannot see the change in radius, the effect is that if the curve is extended it becomes ovoid, rather than circle. You point this out to a purist and you get told that an ovoid reflects a changing circle, or over-lapping circles. Anyway, however you look at it, curves must be smooth.

3) sanding could be taken to about 600 - 800 grit, and then the grain must be raised with steam and polished off with 0000 steel wool, until it does not raise anymore; you want a perfectly polished surface before you apply the finish. A steam iron is easy to use for the steam.

4) the traditional finish for a Javanese wrongko is french polish, usually the Javanese m'ranggis will only use a maximum of 5 or 6 coats, and then rub back with rotten stone, and finish with a particular type of rough leaf, the reason for this is that they believe too many coats detracts from the beauty of the wood grain. This might be true, because of the way they do the job, but a true french polish can enhance wood grain up to, and even beyond, a piano finish of say 16 and upwards coats. You need to apply a french polish in a figure of eight pattern.

5) I do not know what the traditional finish on Bugis and Peninsula wrongkos was. It looks like it might have been shellac, but in my experience old Bugis style wrongkos exhibit a surface that looks very like well patinated polished wood. Newer ones seem to have a pretty crude sort of varnish that sometimes lifts and leaves bare patches:- poor quality material, inexpertly applied and very ugly. OK for a row boat or outside timber, but not for cabinet work or an artisan product, and a wrongko is an artisan product.

6) if you do not want to go the full "traditional" route, Danish Oil or similar, applied with a rubber (fine cotton/linen pad filled with cotton wool) and run up to maybe five coats, polished off between coats with 00 steel wool, and final coat lightly polished off with 0000 steel wool, then waxed, will give a very, very close imitation of a nicely aged traditional finish.

A good finish to any wood is in the preparation Johan. I avoid using fillers if at all possible and use the finish material as the filler, it’s a slower process, but in my opinion gives a much superior job. Do not skimp on the preparation.

Johan van Zyl · 13th May 2017, 08:38 AM

Thank you, all - you have once again given me much to ponder on. And while I ponder, it is a good hint that I use the time wisely, to carry on even further with the preparation of the wood before shellacking or oiling or whatever needs to be done. I'll practice on spare wood as you suggest.

I have already attached the little rim of the buntut, and it looks cool. Please give me a few days for completion, then I'll try to post a few really nice final pics.

(The Bugis keris seemed very satisfied with its "dress" as I slid it in. So much so that I even had to coax it gently with my thumb to get it out again!)

((Yes, yes, you're right, that's just me bragging! Well, at least the fit is good.))

A. G. Maisey · 13th May 2017, 10:36 AM

Johan, Danish Oil, and similar products are not really like the old time wood finishing oils such as linseed oil. They dry hard and polymerise into a solid state. Don't think that linseed or other ordinary oils can be substituted, you have a lot of adhesive in that wrongko, it should not be exposed to the risk of oil penetration.

Johan van Zyl · 13th May 2017, 02:24 PM

What I understand from this last post of yours, Alan, is that you're saying boiled linseed oil is better than Danish oil and preferable to use on this wrongko.

It so happens I have a supply of fresh boiled linseed oil and if I can use that, it saves me a lot of searching for the other products. To my knowledge boiled linseed oil is also called "London oil" and very preferable for new rifle stocks of walnut and other fine woods, in the best of stockmaking tradition.

My son and sister were dismayed to read that you want the raised edge removed, because they liked it very much! But I will have to disappoint them and sand down the ridge. Maybe I'll keep just a hint of a ridge. And the semicircular end needs to be thinned down. And the line needs to be thinned also. Me, I'm happy for these final comments and I am going to put in a few more hours.

A. G. Maisey · 13th May 2017, 10:47 PM

Johan, I am saying the complete opposite:-

DO NOT USE LINSEED OIL ON THIS PIECE OF WOODWORK

I apologise if my English was unclear.

This wood is glued together, linseed oil is a penetrating oil, if it penetrates to the glued joints, particularly in the joints in the gandar, those joints are likely to separate.

Use Danish oil

do not use linseed oil

~~~~~~~~~~

I've used linseed oil, both raw and boiled, on rifle stocks, and it gives a good finish, but it will penetrate wood, depending on the type of wood, sometimes quite deeply, it must never be used on wood with glued joints.

12th May 2017, 03:13 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I think shellac will give you a nicer finish.

12th May 2017, 05:49 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Johan, That doesn't look bad at all! Certainly not a perfect copy and with some shortcomings for traditionally minded connoisseurs. More than adequate clothes for your keris though - you can certainly be proud having done this with a tough wood which seems to have quite nice figuring, too! Traditional finish for keris is shellac (no multiple layers needed); make sure to fill the pores with wood dust during the final polishing steps! The color is probably close to Kemuning limau (yellow kemuning wood); you could leave it as is if you prefer this color. You could also utilize some spare bits of the same wood for testing whether using boiled linseed oil first and shellac later will make both woods looking even better. Regards, Kai

13th May 2017, 12:16 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	That's actually not too bad Johan, you've got the overall form pretty good, it looks like what it is intended to be. We must never forget that even in the societies where these things came from, not everybody was a master. Your efforts to date are good Johan. I will offer the following:- 1) you can only have two sorts of lines:- a straight line or a part of a circle; lumps, bumps, wandering lines are definitely not permitted, and that applies to any sort of work of this nature. 2) the heavy ridge that interrupts smooth transition from the face to the top of the piece must go, the face of the wrongko from its lower edge to the top where the surface turns inward should be a smooth curve, in other words a part of a circle --- a very large circle, but a circle just the same. This "part of a circle " idea has been quoted as a dictum for as long as people have made things, but what nobody ever seems to point out is that it is really "parts of circles", for example, in a long curve you can get variation in the progression of the curve, each part of the curve can reflect a different radius, but even so, that curve must be a smooth progression, so that you cannot see the change in radius, the effect is that if the curve is extended it becomes ovoid, rather than circle. You point this out to a purist and you get told that an ovoid reflects a changing circle, or over-lapping circles. Anyway, however you look at it, curves must be smooth. 3) sanding could be taken to about 600 - 800 grit, and then the grain must be raised with steam and polished off with 0000 steel wool, until it does not raise anymore; you want a perfectly polished surface before you apply the finish. A steam iron is easy to use for the steam. 4) the traditional finish for a Javanese wrongko is french polish, usually the Javanese m'ranggis will only use a maximum of 5 or 6 coats, and then rub back with rotten stone, and finish with a particular type of rough leaf, the reason for this is that they believe too many coats detracts from the beauty of the wood grain. This might be true, because of the way they do the job, but a true french polish can enhance wood grain up to, and even beyond, a piano finish of say 16 and upwards coats. You need to apply a french polish in a figure of eight pattern. 5) I do not know what the traditional finish on Bugis and Peninsula wrongkos was. It looks like it might have been shellac, but in my experience old Bugis style wrongkos exhibit a surface that looks very like well patinated polished wood. Newer ones seem to have a pretty crude sort of varnish that sometimes lifts and leaves bare patches:- poor quality material, inexpertly applied and very ugly. OK for a row boat or outside timber, but not for cabinet work or an artisan product, and a wrongko is an artisan product. 6) if you do not want to go the full "traditional" route, Danish Oil or similar, applied with a rubber (fine cotton/linen pad filled with cotton wool) and run up to maybe five coats, polished off between coats with 00 steel wool, and final coat lightly polished off with 0000 steel wool, then waxed, will give a very, very close imitation of a nicely aged traditional finish. A good finish to any wood is in the preparation Johan. I avoid using fillers if at all possible and use the finish material as the filler, it’s a slower process, but in my opinion gives a much superior job. Do not skimp on the preparation.

13th May 2017, 08:38 AM	#4
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Thank you, all - you have once again given me much to ponder on. And while I ponder, it is a good hint that I use the time wisely, to carry on even further with the preparation of the wood before shellacking or oiling or whatever needs to be done. I'll practice on spare wood as you suggest. I have already attached the little rim of the buntut, and it looks cool. Please give me a few days for completion, then I'll try to post a few really nice final pics. (The Bugis keris seemed very satisfied with its "dress" as I slid it in. So much so that I even had to coax it gently with my thumb to get it out again!) ((Yes, yes, you're right, that's just me bragging! Well, at least the fit is good.))

13th May 2017, 10:36 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Johan, Danish Oil, and similar products are not really like the old time wood finishing oils such as linseed oil. They dry hard and polymerise into a solid state. Don't think that linseed or other ordinary oils can be substituted, you have a lot of adhesive in that wrongko, it should not be exposed to the risk of oil penetration.

13th May 2017, 02:24 PM	#6
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	What I understand from this last post of yours, Alan, is that you're saying boiled linseed oil is better than Danish oil and preferable to use on this wrongko. It so happens I have a supply of fresh boiled linseed oil and if I can use that, it saves me a lot of searching for the other products. To my knowledge boiled linseed oil is also called "London oil" and very preferable for new rifle stocks of walnut and other fine woods, in the best of stockmaking tradition. My son and sister were dismayed to read that you want the raised edge removed, because they liked it very much! But I will have to disappoint them and sand down the ridge. Maybe I'll keep just a hint of a ridge. And the semicircular end needs to be thinned down. And the line needs to be thinned also. Me, I'm happy for these final comments and I am going to put in a few more hours.

13th May 2017, 10:47 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Johan, I am saying the complete opposite:- DO NOT USE LINSEED OIL ON THIS PIECE OF WOODWORK I apologise if my English was unclear. This wood is glued together, linseed oil is a penetrating oil, if it penetrates to the glued joints, particularly in the joints in the gandar, those joints are likely to separate. Use Danish oil do not use linseed oil ~~~~~~~~~~ I've used linseed oil, both raw and boiled, on rifle stocks, and it gives a good finish, but it will penetrate wood, depending on the type of wood, sometimes quite deeply, it must never be used on wood with glued joints.