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26th April 2017, 03:11 AM
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#1 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
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 . He seemed sincere. So out of curiosity over the years I have dug into it a little. The Spanish connection in the article is possible but I always thought it got here by trade. This area was first explored by Europeans in the early 1800's by the Pacific Fur Company. Other companies operated in this area as well. I suspected this sword was a trade item brought here by one of the companies from the surplus stock of a European manufacturer. This seems to be bore out as I came across this inventory from the Rocky Mountain Outfit that operated east of here.https://user.xmission.com/~drudy/mtm...l/rmo1836.html The "12 dragon Swords" listed would have been a perfect description of the original Kastane. I always meant to tell him this but I never ran into him again. Jeff |
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26th April 2017, 11:59 AM
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#2 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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I second your doubts.
Spaniards were never in "control" of Ceylon ( Sri Lanka). Portuguese, then Dutch, then. ( post 1802) British. AFAIK, the D -guard of kastane was introduced by the Dutch, but those did not venture into British Columbia. The easiest explanation would involve a Brit , military or otherwise |
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26th April 2017, 12:50 PM
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#3 | |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
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26th April 2017, 01:38 PM
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#4 |
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
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see 'red sun' 1971 - charles bronson/toshiro mifune/unrsula andress, wild west, katanas, samurai, comanches, got it all... sword sent by emperor to the president gets stolen in a train robbery, samurai mifune teams up with bronson to recover the sword and the rest of the looted stuff. many bad people succumb to the samurai's katana. Red Sun
p.s. - mifune's katana winds up stuck in a corn field  maybe the black feet found it  - (my family is in part, alabama black foot)
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26th April 2017, 04:48 PM
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#5 | |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,281
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I always loved this movie!! and it was such a fantastic confluence of cultures between the Samaurai and the 'cowboy'/gunfighter of the west. When I first became interested in the actual levels of sword use by American Indians, and seeing that katana in Red Cloud's possession this movie was my first thought. |
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26th April 2017, 09:31 PM
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#6 | |
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Location: The Netherlands
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26th April 2017, 06:38 PM
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#7 | |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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As far as these arriving in British Columbia via Spanish means, I would doubt that being the case and am inclined to think these might have arrived via possibly British trade, which likely acquired them in some means via Dutch conduit. There are any number of possibilities for that conundrum, however what is clearly apparent is this item, said to be of the 'Turtle People' (probably a clan name of tribe not specified), is indeed a kastane. It does appear of the character of these swords, with likely a Dutch hanger blade of 18th century, as many of these were assembled with for the Dutch East Indies trade. What is puzzling is how it came to be in British Columbia and not singly, but in a grouping of a dozen. As noted, the Spanish had little to do with Ceylon, however one of the earliest examples we have found of the kastane hilt in its well known zoomorphic motif is the one found in Sendai, Japan's holdings. This was from the Keicho Embassy sent by Masemune 1613-1620 to a number of countries, which included a visit to King Philip III in Spain in 1615. Tsunemaga of this embassy was apparently presented with several items including the kastane (which he had from source unclear). The reason for this appears to have been it was unlawful to present Spanish weapons to foreign visitors so this was given in lieu. That would appear to be the entirety of Spanish connection to the kastane swords. The stories of Spanish 'conquistadors' seems to have been embellished throughout North American folklore into virtually every corner of the continent. However, they do make for absolutely fascinating research and investigation. All very best regards, and again thank you for this outstanding entry! Jim |
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27th April 2017, 02:16 AM
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#8 | |
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Arms Historian
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Location: Route 66
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The notion of Spanish presence in these regions has some degree of validity. There were a number of Spanish voyages to secure Spanish interests in the Pacific Northwest in the last quarter of the 18th c. and they had claimed Nootka in attempt to control these from Russian dominance. By the 1780s apparently local tribes offered both Russian and Spanish materials in their trade. The Spanish also had a fort at Vancouver for a time. The news item claims that there was a Spanish sword of 16th century located in these areas, but unclear about this 'kastane' which they assume is Spanish. The note on the Dutch influence on the Ceylonese swords is well placed and probably correct in degree regarding the knuckleguard, and these were most often fashioned with Dutch or German hanger blades (as on this one). There were many of these with VOC blades, and brought back to the Netherlands by their ships. So why would Spaniards have these Ceylonese swords? Possibly due to the Netherlands being under Spanish control in the 18th century. There was considerable traffic between England and the Netherlands in these times as well. To consider that some of these kastane, as an exotic novelty, entering British trade stores from Dutch sources, which may have travelled to America, the Dutch areas of New York seems plausible. These may have entered American Indian tribal context, which could account for the curious note that this sword was of the 'turtle people' (perhaps the Eastern Woodland tribes whose mythology and clan names were deeply rooted with turtle totemism). This may have accounted for a transcontinental intertribal trade system/ route for this sword or swords of kastane form moving westward into these regions. On the other hand, a Spanish arrival through trade contact in the East Indies via Asian sources might have brought these to Spanish ports in North America via Philippine routes. What is also curious is that this kastane, while intact other than the grip alteration, would seem to be unusual, and such 'custom' alterations of what appears to be staghorn grip not too likely for as many as 12 swords of such exotic nature. It seems the Spanish presence, though relatively limited and brief in these Northwest regions, is somewhat well established in the coastal regions. However there is really no support for more profound colonial activity inland, and the case for the armed Spanish force remains unproven. This sword (kastane) really is not instrumental for these situations as far as proof. But it surely is interesting, and strongly suggests probable American Indian context, though circumstances unclear. |
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27th April 2017, 12:56 PM
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#9 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
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Jim, could you make it more clear to me the part in which you say:
What is also curious is that this kastane, while intact other than the grip alteration, would seem to be unusual, and such 'custom' alterations of what appears to be staghorn grip not too likely for as many as 12 swords of such exotic nature. Do you mean there is a record of circa 12 kastanes have/had their grips altered in this discussed manner ? ... For i realize this modification is a vital detail is this sword history definition; as certainly such intervention took place after leaving Sri Lanka and before getting into America; in Spain, when matching with current provenance theory. Also interesting is the interpretation of the so called "turtle people" attribution; with one source betting this was due to incoming Spaniards wearing front and back armour (and helmet) gear, giving them a turtle look (a plausible perspective), while other remembers that by this time and place, they were no longer using such heavy armour. However i wouldn't discard the possibility that the natives would call them so becaue they were aware of their earlier outfit. A far shot would be that, the said natives were aware or told of the real origin of these swords; in fact Sri Lankan people were eentually 'a (not the) turtle people', as in their island sea turtle abunds, even kastane hilts and scabbards often being made with turtle shell. Here we have some of the two dozen pictures published in 2013 by Cass Chowdhury, a British Columbia resident, whose professor Dr. Stanley Copp had done a fair amount of background work on this sword. Cass's task at the time was to try to narrow down the kastane's origin to a few plausible theories, or at least definitively rule some out. It doesn't seem to me that the grip is stag horn, but a rudimentary work done with a less exoticmaterial ... wood ? , |
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27th April 2017, 05:36 PM
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#10 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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Fernando, thank you so much for adding to this with excellent research, these great close up photos and most pertinent observations.
Your question on my comment regarding the alteration of this kastane is well placed, and my wording was indeed oblique. What I meant was that regarding the 1836 inventory found by Jeff which showed 12 'dragon swords' ( compellingly suggesting the kastane) among stores supplied to this fur company. .....it does not seem they would have all been altered. It seems that the grouping of 'dragon swords' would have been noted as such for the grotesque zoomorphic creature of the pommel giving the 'dragon' term. This example seems to have a bone hilt grip, as given the degree of goethite from age and being deposited or in conditions taking it to 'excavated' condition, and the fact it still exists. Wood I think would have been gone. This example then may well be one which was apparently remounted with bone, and it seems well peened, more in accord with an armourer than a native remount. This suggests more use of an individual of the trade industry than a native, but it seems perhaps that the other 11 swords may have filtered into native use. Without corroborating examples it is not possible to know exactly what these dragon swords looked like, nor how many were altered. That they were entered into inventory in original state seems likely as noted by description. Good reference on the fact that 'turtle people' seems an early colloquial term by natives for Spaniards, for their armored countenance. However, by these times, as noted, the Spanish were typically not wearing such armor. Oral tradition is a profoundly maintained thing among native peoples, and it does seem this term would have carried forth regardless of such detail as it no longer being worn. The term indirectly may have been broadly used to describe 'foreigners' in the manner of 'firangi' with blades in India. One thing I have discovered in studying the Spanish in colonial situations is that they often, almost stubbornly, continued the use of long obsolete arms and armor. The main problem causing the reluctant abandoning of many items was unserviceability and lack of armourers to maintain them. The Spaniards aboard the vessels seen by natives in coastal areas may have had such armor, or even without the body armor, probably had helmets. The hard 'shell' effect would recall the turtle in native parlance. The turtle seems well used in mythology and lore of many cultures beyond Native American, and as noted, in Asian areas as well. Returning to the problem of how this sword, or the other 11 which we presume might have accompanied it, might have arrived in these vastly incongruent circumstances in British Columbia, we still have no solution. As Jeff has noted, and I agree, this sword seems to have come into this context in trade circumstances rather than being a weapon from any Spanish incursion as mentioned in the news items. I am thinking more likely of Dutch-Spanish contact via trade situations in the areas in Philippines an environs, and perhaps these reaching Spanish ports in Mexico, then to Alta California and of course beyond. I would imagine this being around 1770s as I have noted, the blade on this seems much like Dutch hanger blades of 18th century. |
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27th April 2017, 08:31 PM
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#11 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: between work and sleep
Posts: 731
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Interesting thread... I have definitely seen some of these old photos, very cool to speculate about the journeys some of these swords/status symbols must have been taken on.
Side-note: Sword-play in a sense was not unknown in North America, the so-called atassa warclub of the Southeast was heavily used and was described as a wooden falchion. The Aztecs and their neighbors are famous for using what was essentially an obsidian edged wooden sword - they called it the macuahuitl. Similarly the Calusa people of Florida were known to use shark-tooth swords. Carib/Kali'na peoples of northern South America often replaced their bows and clubs with muskets and cutlasses. The Tupian peoples on the coast of today's Brazil traded for swords with European allies.. what might today be called side-swords and longswords. In South America's Guianas and Amazon there are a variety of bladed/paddle clubs which, as much as possible for a club, have sword-like qualities because of the edge. But it is interesting to note that in North America, while there was the indigenous atassa, it seems swords weren't as heavily traded for and used in warfare as other items. |
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10th August 2017, 05:27 PM
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#13 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
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Somebody paid a small fortune with no real provenance. Would this type of sword be carried by a the relatively low in rank officers in the Fretterman incident?
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10th August 2017, 05:52 PM
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#14 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
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unusual for a lower ranking officer to be presented with it, he must have enjoyed carrying it and showing off. all in all i'd not pay all that moola without a durn good provenance and lots of documentation. i could see an NDN who captured it cutting off the guard to suit him. bit like the japanese did to the heihos. Last edited by kronckew; 10th August 2017 at 06:06 PM. |
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