for discussion - ancient Sepang ?

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by Jean

Same sort of stuff as the previous ones? Look at the greneng.
Regards

it is coming from my friend. He is a keris dealer and I already asked for his permission to use his pictures on non-commercial site. I did not bought from him nor using this site for commercial usage.

he hunted keris and tosan aji in remote villages and sometimes got around 10 - 15 at one hunt ... not all are worth mentioning, of course. He made a living by cleaning, restoring and selling it

some are true keris, some are blatant fakes, some are interesting and in the border between real and unreal.

Donny

[David]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

some are true keris, some are blatant fakes, some are interesting and in the border between real and unreal.

Donny, if you are sincere about advancing the knowledge of recognizing fakes vs. the real deal for the sake of new collectors perhaps that best thing you could do would be to post some of the tosan aji your friend has discovered that you believe are true keris along side what you think fake or uncertain. These comparisons would go a long way to illustrate the difference for the new collectors. If all you do is continue to post only the fakes you must understand why people will grow suspicious of your motives.

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by David

Donny, if you are sincere about advancing the knowledge of recognizing fakes vs. the real deal for the sake of new collectors perhaps that best thing you could do would be to post some of the tosan aji your friend has discovered that you believe are true keris along side what you think fake or uncertain. These comparisons would go a long way to illustrate the difference for the new collectors. If all you do is continue to post only the fakes you must understand why people will grow suspicious of your motives.

I take this as an insult ... (just kidding)
David, if you look at my post history, I post a lot of thing. Event of keris, a newly made keris, an odd keris, a good kamardikan keris, and so on. I love this forum and would like to keep it alive

I consider myself lucky, I lived in the land of keris. Perhaps that's why I tend to overlook the common keris ... brojol, tilam upih ... all can be found here in hundreds if not thousands

I also consider myself as an apprentice, as I may be wrong, I do have my opinion, and I try my best to present it but I always kept my doubt that I may be wrong

remember the Singo Sineba I posted earlier ? some said it was antique, until Alan pinpoint where it goes wrong, and it passed many experts here as genuine antique and someone bought it for USD 1,000

for now, I have the chance to know a friend, a keris dealer, so my posts will mostly about him and what I found to be interesting, intriguing as I did not think a post about brojol or tilam upih keris will be interesting for you all. Hey, it's me learning from your opinion here ...

I took your advice to the heart, David, and I will try to post comparison for the next post, but beware ... it may be boring

Donny

[David]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

remember the Singo Sineba I posted earlier ? some said it was antique, until Alan pinpoint where it goes wrong, and it passed many experts here as genuine antique and someone bought it for USD 1,000

Donny, your memory seems a little foggy there. I just read through that thread again and not a single person that commented from this forum thought they were looking at a legitimate keris. The question was only whether it was an altered older keris or a completely new creation that was artificially aged. And everyone pretty much said that the images you offered made that exact judgement difficult. What i believe Alan finally suggested was that the gonjo may have actually been old and that the wilah may have been built up new upon it. As for the poor sucker who paid $1000 for such an obviously suspicious blade, i cannot speak to their mistake.
Donny, i don't have to look at your history for any validation, i have followed your posts very closely since you first arrived here. I am one of the moderators so that's kind of my job. Frankly the large majority of the keris you post here turn out to be highly questionable examples, from your "river finds" to your bronze blade and a variety of unusually dhapurs and pamor patterns that almost invariably turn out to be contemporary even if they are not always presented as such.
Quite honestly, i would much prefer to discuss "boring" old authentic brojol or tilam upih keris on this forum than the fakes your new keris dealer friend seems so adept at "discovering" as he hunts through the remote villages of your land.

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by David

Donny, your memory seems a little foggy there. I just read through that thread again and not a single person that commented from this forum thought they were looking at a legitimate keris. The question was only whether it was an altered older keris or a completely new creation that was artificially aged. And everyone pretty much said that the images you offered made that exact judgement difficult. What i believe Alan finally suggested was that the gonjo may have actually been old and that the wilah may have been built up new upon it. As for the poor sucker who paid $1000 for such an obviously suspicious blade, i cannot speak to their mistake.
Donny, i don't have to look at your history for any validation, i have followed your posts very closely since you first arrived here. I am one of the moderators so that's kind of my job. Frankly the large majority of the keris you post here turn out to be highly questionable examples, from your "river finds" to your bronze blade and a variety of unusually dhapurs and pamor patterns that almost invariably turn out to be contemporary even if they are not always presented as such.
Quite honestly, i would much prefer to discuss "boring" old authentic brojol or tilam upih keris on this forum than the fakes your new keris dealer friend seems so adept at "discovering" as he hunts through the remote villages of your land.

are you insinuating that I am up to something, David ?
like it or not, fakes are part of the keris world, and since fakes are getting better and better, isn't it better if someone posting a nice example of fakes, of which even Indonesians thought to be genuine ?

I always put "I may be wrong" first. Like the Singo Sineba, I purely thought it was original at first. It fooled me straightforward. Can't I put it here and asked for opinion from people more knowledgeable than me ?

You see that "poor sucker" did pay much for it, and I am glad I am not buying it, since it does looked very nice at first. And up to now, both the seller and the buyer are sure that what they got is old ones, despite what I said

what I posted is what I thought to be intriguing, interesting, I myself may tend to think it was fake, artificially aged, but I am not yet reaching your level of knowledge, so I wanted a good opinion rather than my hunch that it was a fake

but since doing so makes anyone, even moderator thought that I may have some kind of different motives, well I think this is the right time to say farewell

not leaving this forum, but I will stop posting

thanks for all the knowledge I gained here

Donny

[David]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

are you insinuating that I am up to something, David ?
like it or not, fakes are part of the keris world, and since fakes are getting better and better, isn't it better if someone posting a nice example of fakes, of which even Indonesians thought to be genuine ?

No Donny. I am certainly not insinuating anything. Everything i said in my last post is verifiable fact. I have made no inferences based upon those facts. I simply went back through the history of posts that you have started, looked carefully at those discussions and the keris you have presented to us and made some observations. Your motives for posting what you post here are your own and i am making absolutely no accusations about them, only calling them out for what they are purely on the surface.
I completely agree with you Donny. Fakes are an unfortunate part of the current keris world. At no point did i suggest that we should not or could not discuss them here. You tell us you have a new friend, a keris dealer, and that your posts will mostly be about him and the keris he finds and what you think is "interesting, intriguing" in those finds. But so far i have seen nothing from this friend that isn't a fake. So what should we make of your friend and his judgments or abilities as a keris dealer? Whether he is innocently ill-informed or outright dishonest and deceitful i certainly could not say. That is a judgement i don't choose to make. But the reality is that the keris he presents to you, that you then present to us, have so far turned out to be deceptions. That is the reality of the situation. What that tells you about your friend is between you and him and it is your own choice whether or not you decide to stop posting his fakes or any other keris for that matter on this forum. But it you change you mind and do decide to post more, please understand that they will receive direct and honest commentary.

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by David

No Donny. I am certainly not insinuating anything. Everything i said in my last post is verifiable fact. I have made no inferences based upon those facts. I simply went back through the history of posts that you have started, looked carefully at those discussions and the keris you have presented to us and made some observations. Your motives for posting what you post here are your own and i am making absolutely no accusations about them, only calling them out for what they are purely on the surface.
I completely agree with you Donny. Fakes are an unfortunate part of the current keris world. At no point did i suggest that we should not or could not discuss them here. You tell us you have a new friend, a keris dealer, and that your posts will mostly be about him and the keris he finds and what you think is "interesting, intriguing" in those finds. But so far i have seen nothing from this friend that isn't a fake. So what should we make of your friend and his judgments or abilities as a keris dealer? Whether he is innocently ill-informed or outright dishonest and deceitful i certainly could not say. That is a judgement i don't choose to make. But the reality is that the keris he presents to you, that you then present to us, have so far turned out to be deceptions. That is the reality of the situation. What that tells you about your friend is between you and him and it is your own choice whether or not you decide to stop posting his fakes or any other keris for that matter on this forum. But it you change you mind and do decide to post more, please understand that they will receive direct and honest commentary.

okay, I understand

let me clear several things out. My friend is a keris dealer, he sold many many many keris(es) and other tosan aji like swords, tombaks and so on

I am the one, who is to blame, for choosing only what I think interesting to be studied at. Some I know (by hunch) is a fake, but I cannot clearly pinpoint where to look at.

some are what I believed to be genuine (the Singo Sineba is the example).
That is why I come here. to look for answer, a decent one

like I said, I love it here, the atmosphere is nice, but somehow I felt that you all are treating me too harshly ... or perhaps it was just my high expectation from you, as I consider all of you are blade brothers, and brothers never accused brothers of cheating

so all has been said, I will be more careful in my next post. I will stay, and I do hope you all won't mind sharing your knowledge with me.

thank you

Donny