Austrian hussar sabre for ID

Victrix · 20th April 2017, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

These notches are at no way limited to Austian swords. There are Prussian cuirassier swords M 1732 with such a notch as well as Saxon cavalry swords M 1764. The foto shows the the tip of the Prussian sword.
corrado26

Many thanks for posting this picture Corrado26! Any chance of seeing the whole sword including the tip?

Jim McDougall · 20th April 2017, 05:48 PM

I hope the detail from Wagner might respond to your earlier question Victrix.
I agree, it would be great to see the photo of the sword with the tip.
That was why I wrote the those museums and got photos of the swords emphasizing the notched tip.

The British sword I mentioned has only in the description that the tip was notched, and apparently deliberately, not from damage. However this reference was in my notes and the source not cited (I cant believe I did that!) so useless for supportive evidence. I just know I saw it, and the sword was entirely out of East European context c. 1780.

There must be some account or reference in the military history corpus of these Austrian and Prussian cavalry in which this curious anomaly is noted. Occasionally such dimension and detail is noted in mention of the troopers field notching their blades perhaps.

Victrix · 20th April 2017, 10:04 PM

Yes, thank you very much Jim for raising the issue of notches on blades to my attention. If I come across information regarding this I will share it with you. We might not necessarily be able to solve the conundrum, but at least we'll be able to view the evidence and draw our own conclusions.

Jim McDougall · 21st April 2017, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Yes, thank you very much Jim for raising the issue of notches on blades to my attention. If I come across information regarding this I will share it with you. We might not necessarily be able to solve the conundrum, but at least we'll be able to view the evidence and draw our own conclusions.

We have come a long way here Victrix! (remember this one has been 'on my books' for over 20 years! but honestly I have not lost sleep over it)

Even if we do not solve this, it is good to have the data at hand compiled for review, and we can at least find reasonable plausibility for the matter.
I very much appreciate discussing this with you and Corrado!
Lets stay at it !

Victrix · 21st April 2017, 09:03 PM

Found Anton Dolleczek's book Monographie der k.u.k. österr.-ung. blanken und Handfeuer-Waffen (1970) today by chance and looked at the swords from early 18thC. None of them have notches. Maybe these notches were not as common as Wagner's book seems to suggest (unintentionally), and added as a feature by some individual troopers at the time?

Jim McDougall · 21st April 2017, 11:05 PM

Great find!!! This is an extremely hard to find reference (at least it was), but I have seen these plates before. Indeed this is a typology of these arms, but the notches not shown. Remember that it is my impression these were a field addition, not a regulation feature.
The examples depicted in Wagner were certainly anomalies, remember only five of all shown have these, and these were all weapons which had been in service collected in the museums noted. I thought perhaps these might have been artistic license, so I wrote to the museums cited by Wagner as I mentioned earlier. In each case, photographs of the actual weapons depicted in the drawings indeed had the notch! However, none of the officials had given this any notice, and had no idea what these were for.

Nice job in finding this reference!!! I always wanted one of those Austrian disc hilt M1769 since working on a history of the British M1796.

corrado26 · 22nd April 2017, 07:24 AM

Here come two fotos of a Prussian husar sabre with a very faint notch at the back of its blade - maybe it is nothing else than a light damage....
corrado26

Victrix · 22nd April 2017, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Great find!!! This is an extremely hard to find reference (at least it was), but I have seen these plates before. Indeed this is a typology of these arms, but the notches not shown. Remember that it is my impression these were a field addition, not a regulation feature.
The examples depicted in Wagner were certainly anomalies, remember only five of all shown have these, and these were all weapons which had been in service collected in the museums noted. I thought perhaps these might have been artistic license, so I wrote to the museums cited by Wagner as I mentioned earlier. In each case, photographs of the actual weapons depicted in the drawings indeed had the notch! However, none of the officials had given this any notice, and had no idea what these were for.

Nice job in finding this reference!!! I always wanted one of those Austrian disc hilt M1769 since working on a history of the British M1796.

Yes Jim, Dolleczek's book in German was mostly text with some plates with illustrations at the back (also including Austro-Hungarian firearms and equipment). I'm surprised that there is not more literature dedicated to Austro-Hungarian sabres pre-1815, as these are very interesting and varied swords in themselves. I have struggled to find a copy of Hussar Weapons of the 15-17thC (2010) by Tibor S Kovacs which I understand is no longer available even in Budapest. The Austrian M1769 sabre is nice, but I personally wouldn't mind having an Austrian panzerstecher in my collection.

corrado26 · 21st April 2017, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Many thanks for posting this picture Corrado26! Any chance of seeing the whole sword including the tip?

I'll try to get such fotos -be patient please
corrado26

21st April 2017, 09:03 PM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Found Anton Dolleczek's book Monographie der k.u.k. österr.-ung. blanken und Handfeuer-Waffen (1970) today by chance and looked at the swords from early 18thC. None of them have notches. Maybe these notches were not as common as Wagner's book seems to suggest (unintentionally), and added as a feature by some individual troopers at the time? Attached Images Last edited by Victrix; 21st April 2017 at 09:24 PM.

22nd April 2017, 07:24 AM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	Here come two fotos of a Prussian husar sabre with a very faint notch at the back of its blade - maybe it is nothing else than a light damage.... corrado26 Attached Images

20th April 2017, 05:48 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I hope the detail from Wagner might respond to your earlier question Victrix. I agree, it would be great to see the photo of the sword with the tip. That was why I wrote the those museums and got photos of the swords emphasizing the notched tip. The British sword I mentioned has only in the description that the tip was notched, and apparently deliberately, not from damage. However this reference was in my notes and the source not cited (I cant believe I did that!) so useless for supportive evidence. I just know I saw it, and the sword was entirely out of East European context c. 1780. There must be some account or reference in the military history corpus of these Austrian and Prussian cavalry in which this curious anomaly is noted. Occasionally such dimension and detail is noted in mention of the troopers field notching their blades perhaps.

20th April 2017, 10:04 PM	#3
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Yes, thank you very much Jim for raising the issue of notches on blades to my attention. If I come across information regarding this I will share it with you. We might not necessarily be able to solve the conundrum, but at least we'll be able to view the evidence and draw our own conclusions.

21st April 2017, 11:05 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Great find!!! This is an extremely hard to find reference (at least it was), but I have seen these plates before. Indeed this is a typology of these arms, but the notches not shown. Remember that it is my impression these were a field addition, not a regulation feature. The examples depicted in Wagner were certainly anomalies, remember only five of all shown have these, and these were all weapons which had been in service collected in the museums noted. I thought perhaps these might have been artistic license, so I wrote to the museums cited by Wagner as I mentioned earlier. In each case, photographs of the actual weapons depicted in the drawings indeed had the notch! However, none of the officials had given this any notice, and had no idea what these were for. Nice job in finding this reference!!! I always wanted one of those Austrian disc hilt M1769 since working on a history of the British M1796.