Odd Sword

Helleri · 20th April 2017, 04:25 AM

I've found this site to be very useful in looking up and comparing systems of writing.

Jim McDougall · 20th April 2017, 06:44 AM

It is good to see this thread back, and the focus on possible identification of the sword blade. As with so many ethnographic situations blades such as this one, typically European, whether trade or otherwise acquired, are often remounted many times in their working lives. Apparently there were many caches of blades in Bedouin holdings which were eventually filtered into locations in Arabia where they were remounted into swords for various situations.

This blade, with its most curious lettered inscription, appears to be a 17th century European arming sword blade as we have discussed. The 'cross' is a device often termed the 'anchor' which is found at the end of the fuller or often inscribed panel at its termination. While this one seems quite rudimentary, these are often more complex with numerous cross bars.

As we have seen, it seems fruitless to try to determine the origin of these characters, which appear to be assembled from various sources and perhaps alphabets. In these times and earlier, it was quite common to have various mottos, phrases and invocations placed in acrostic form on blades. In Italy there are variations of these kinds of inscriptions which seem like entirely unintelligible gibberish. The same kinds of inscriptions occur in even earlier times on blades found in England with what are termed 'magical' inscriptions.

In many cases, often on Spanish blades, there are magical symbols interpolated with otherwise regular lettering, and we can surmise that such practice may have applied to these kinds of acrostics. Often they were disguised religious invocations or talismanic devices. In many cases these characters are of numerical rather than alphabetic value, and numbers in magic are assigned particular meanings and values. For example the numbers on many blades such as 1441; 1414 and others are often perceived as dates, but are actually magic combinations.

On the blades of East European swords as mentioned, there were such talismanic wordings often with curious symbols and devices, many of these known as the 'Transylvania knot', though not literally a tied cord or knot.
I have had swords with 'Hungarian' blades with such 'wording' which when I tried to have translated, were simply unintelligible groupings of letters.

With the hussar sabres noted, actually the 'Gypsies' were responsible for certain decoration of swords and they did metalwork particularly on scabbards and hilts, but they did not produce swords. In most research concerning symbols on these East European swords, and contact with Gypsy sources, none I found were having to do with their unique language nor symbolism. It was a good thought though

as I felt at the time.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 20th April 2017, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helleri

I've found this site to be very useful in looking up and comparing systems of writing.

Salaams Helleri, It gets complicated as we know that even alphabets were mixed up ...The entire blade script may be a code known only to the owner..and the meanings of scripts some of which may be local religious unknown entities may never be unraveled. The sword by the way carries an Oman hilt possibly refitted relatively recently and well after swords were used in battle. My suspicion is that the blade may be Portuguese although I am not certain.

Helleri · 2nd September 2017, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Helleri, It gets complicated as we know that even alphabets were mixed up ...The entire blade script may be a code known only to the owner..and the meanings of scripts some of which may be local religious unknown entities may never be unraveled. The sword by the way carries an Oman hilt possibly refitted relatively recently and well after swords were used in battle. My suspicion is that the blade may be Portuguese although I am not certain.

It's still useful. I've used it several dozen times to identify characters I don't recognize. No one is going to be translating anything that is at all nuanced with it. But it's good place to start to get some ideas of what one is looking at when one has no ideas. Another good one is symbols.com (which has actually expanded to a lot more than just symbols now).

20th April 2017, 04:25 AM	#1
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	I've found this site to be very useful in looking up and comparing systems of writing.

20th April 2017, 06:44 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	It is good to see this thread back, and the focus on possible identification of the sword blade. As with so many ethnographic situations blades such as this one, typically European, whether trade or otherwise acquired, are often remounted many times in their working lives. Apparently there were many caches of blades in Bedouin holdings which were eventually filtered into locations in Arabia where they were remounted into swords for various situations. This blade, with its most curious lettered inscription, appears to be a 17th century European arming sword blade as we have discussed. The 'cross' is a device often termed the 'anchor' which is found at the end of the fuller or often inscribed panel at its termination. While this one seems quite rudimentary, these are often more complex with numerous cross bars. As we have seen, it seems fruitless to try to determine the origin of these characters, which appear to be assembled from various sources and perhaps alphabets. In these times and earlier, it was quite common to have various mottos, phrases and invocations placed in acrostic form on blades. In Italy there are variations of these kinds of inscriptions which seem like entirely unintelligible gibberish. The same kinds of inscriptions occur in even earlier times on blades found in England with what are termed 'magical' inscriptions. In many cases, often on Spanish blades, there are magical symbols interpolated with otherwise regular lettering, and we can surmise that such practice may have applied to these kinds of acrostics. Often they were disguised religious invocations or talismanic devices. In many cases these characters are of numerical rather than alphabetic value, and numbers in magic are assigned particular meanings and values. For example the numbers on many blades such as 1441; 1414 and others are often perceived as dates, but are actually magic combinations. On the blades of East European swords as mentioned, there were such talismanic wordings often with curious symbols and devices, many of these known as the 'Transylvania knot', though not literally a tied cord or knot. I have had swords with 'Hungarian' blades with such 'wording' which when I tried to have translated, were simply unintelligible groupings of letters. With the hussar sabres noted, actually the 'Gypsies' were responsible for certain decoration of swords and they did metalwork particularly on scabbards and hilts, but they did not produce swords. In most research concerning symbols on these East European swords, and contact with Gypsy sources, none I found were having to do with their unique language nor symbolism. It was a good thought though as I felt at the time.