Austrian hussar sabre for ID

Jim McDougall · 18th April 2017, 11:29 PM

For the record, three pages from Wagner (I think there are about 8 examples) and another blade with notches but source unk.

Actually in some notes I found, there is mention of reins being the object of attack where if a riders reins were cut, and control of his horse lost, he was in serious trouble in melee action. There were cases in which this actually prompted reins with guards or chain I believe.
Also, by the same token perhaps these notches could help a rider retrieve his reins if dropped without dismounting?

corrado26 · 19th April 2017, 12:04 PM

Thank you very much - I take this for a very good and plausible thought, really a very good explanation and perhaps the best I have red until today.
corrado26

fernando · 19th April 2017, 01:01 PM

Let me not be a party pooper, Jim (and corrado) but, wouldn't you find these notches to small to pick and pull up 'thick' reins straps ?

.

Jim McDougall · 19th April 2017, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Let me not be a party pooper, Jim (and corrado) but, wouldn't you find these notches to small to pick and pull up 'thick' reins straps ?

.

Good question Fernando, and in actuality, most of the suggestions that have been presented by authorities such as Wagner and other museum officials, collectors et al, though desperately trying to find a pragmatic explanation for these notches, have been equally fanciful.

As I have noted, even the character of these notches, let alone size, defies reasonable plausibility in accord with the proposed purposes. In the case of one pandour sabre I handled, the notch was too small for any effective purpose, yet it was faithfully placed in the same blade location.

My only recourse throughout the many years of trying to resolve this unusual feature has been to consider some long forgotten symbolic gesture for it. As I had mentioned, Bowie knives have long received a vestigial notch on the back of the blade in this manner. We may consider the 'choil' on the back of the kukri blade, faithfully placed, but with no explainable purpose.
The notion of notching a blade to serve as a 'blade catcher' is of course pure nonsense as far as I have seen in more years of studying this phenomenon than I can say exactly.

fernando · 19th April 2017, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...My only recourse throughout the many years of trying to resolve this unusual feature has been to consider some long forgotten symbolic gesture for it ...

My non-initiated perspective has little weight but, unless some clear (convincing) evidence of a practical purpose of these cuts shows up, i would subscribe your thoughts

.

Victrix · 19th April 2017, 09:37 PM

From the discussions above I see no reason to reject the published claims put forward by Messrs Wagner and Protiva regarding the notches on Austrian swords from the beginning of the 18thC, unless evidence materializes to prove them incorrect.

I would be interested to know if all swords of the particular models in Wagner's book Cut and Thrust Weapons had notches, or only some rare examples. Intentionally or not, Wagner's book gives the impression that many Austrian pallasches and sabres from the first half of the 18thC had notches on their blades. Then the question is whether it's significant that these notches occur on blades which were used by Austrian cavalry during the time of Prince Eugene of Savoy, or whether this is a mere coincidence. Finally I would be interested to see photos of Prussian, French, or other swords with similar notches on their blades to prove that the practice was not limited to Austria.

Jim McDougall · 20th April 2017, 05:48 AM

Actually it is interesting to revisit this very old research, and try to find old notes.
I think here it is important to note a caveat to researchers. One thing I think many of us at this for a very long time (usually more years than we care to admit), it is not always the case that because something is written in a book, it is always correct. Most authors note this fact in the introductions, and readily accept that new evidence may render some of their comments and findings to be incorrect.

I have always had the highest respect for those with the courage and tenacity to publish, and have maintained the highest regard for the works of many now venerable authors of key references we all often use and cite as resources. Over the years however, we have often found cases of mistakes and other long held ideas now disproven.
In one case, while researching a topic and checking a reference in an article by a well known author, I asked about a particular observation which I needed to verify to support a theory. Apparently the statement was made by him as an assumption from an unsubstantiated source, which he openly admitted, and for which I admired his honesty. Though discouraged, it reinforced the importance of rechecking and cross checking material and sources.

Now turning to Wagner's reference ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967, p.339) I found the quote in notes (I do not have the book at the moment).....
"...the tooth, cut in the back edge, helped the 'old hewers' to aggravate the wound when thrusting, especially when cutting with the back edge of the broadsword, where there was no room to put much strength into the cut".

This entry seems presumed, the suggestion to the tooth (notch) in aggravating the thrust wound as I have noted seems dangerous in that the blade would become snagged in that wound. However, the note about cutting with the back edge of the blade suggests a back stroke as might be used in the close quarters of melee, which may be what Wagner means by 'no room for strength to the cut'.
This seems to make some degree of sense, as these kinds of wounds, not necessarily debilitating may have been in the sense of the 'stramazone', a slashing across the face to cause distracting bleeding, used in dueling with rapiers.

I found that the references to the 'old hewers; referred to the "War of the Spanish Succession" (1701-14), where the Austrian army still was using many of the older swords from the Thirty Years War as well as forms from continuous war with Turkey. There seem to have a wide scope of forms, but clearly reaching the end of their working lives. These forces in 1701 were indeed led by Eugene of Savoy (d.1736).

In Wagner, there are actually five exemplars illustrated with the notch feature:
Plate 2, p.372, a cavalry broadsword of beginning of 18th c. Prince Eugene inscription.
Plate 3, an Austrian cuirassier broadsword early 18th c.
Plate 7, an Austrian heavy cavalry broadsword in use until c.1740
Plate 35, a Pandour officers sabre c.1747, Hungarian
Plate 39, an Austrian hussar sergeants sabre 1768

All of these are notched at back of blade near tip.

I recall having thought at one time that these notched had to do with the notorious Pandour units, however it seems only that one officers sabre had the notch. There are no other examples throughout the book which have any such notch, only these Austrian examples, which seem anomalies.

I have never (since research began c. 1994) found sound reference to other notched blades other than unsubstantiated comments from other collectors and dealers who had seen them on French examples in cases. I have seen a British sabre of c.1780 with this exact notch but have not the details to support . It would seem the other instances mentioned regarding the Prussian cases are similarly surmised.

In original research in the 90s, I wanted to confirm that the examples in Wagner actually had the notch and this was not artists license, so I contacted the museums he cited for the originals. While they sent me photos of the original swords, when asked, the officials typically claimed they 'had no idea what the notches were for'. This seemed surprising as these were primarily Czech museums, where Wagner had been a curator.

corrado26 · 12th December 2022, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

the question is whether it's significant that these notches occur on blades which were used by Austrian cavalry during the time of Prince Eugene of Savoy, or whether this is a mere coincidence. Finally I would be interested to see photos of Prussian, French, or other swords with similar notches on their blades to prove that the practice was not limited to Austria.

Here are fotos of a probably Bavarian husar sabre around 1710 with a blade with two notches

Victrix · 14th January 2024, 08:53 AM

I have some pics of this sabre in an uncleaned state which I thought I’d share with you. I know some of you have reservations about cleaning antique items and that they should show patina to prove their age. In this case I decided to clean the item to restore its former dignity and show its real beauty. The brass also showed green oxidation which caused me concern about possible future damage. The brass mouth of the scabbard is loose so I show you what this looks like (anatomy).

18th April 2017, 11:29 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	For the record, three pages from Wagner (I think there are about 8 examples) and another blade with notches but source unk. Actually in some notes I found, there is mention of reins being the object of attack where if a riders reins were cut, and control of his horse lost, he was in serious trouble in melee action. There were cases in which this actually prompted reins with guards or chain I believe. Also, by the same token perhaps these notches could help a rider retrieve his reins if dropped without dismounting? Attached Images

14th January 2024, 08:53 AM	#9
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	I have some pics of this sabre in an uncleaned state which I thought I’d share with you. I know some of you have reservations about cleaning antique items and that they should show patina to prove their age. In this case I decided to clean the item to restore its former dignity and show its real beauty. The brass also showed green oxidation which caused me concern about possible future damage. The brass mouth of the scabbard is loose so I show you what this looks like (anatomy). Attached Images

19th April 2017, 12:04 PM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	Thank you very much - I take this for a very good and plausible thought, really a very good explanation and perhaps the best I have red until today. corrado26

19th April 2017, 01:01 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Let me not be a party pooper, Jim (and corrado) but, wouldn't you find these notches to small to pick and pull up 'thick' reins straps ? .

19th April 2017, 09:37 PM	#6
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	From the discussions above I see no reason to reject the published claims put forward by Messrs Wagner and Protiva regarding the notches on Austrian swords from the beginning of the 18thC, unless evidence materializes to prove them incorrect. I would be interested to know if all swords of the particular models in Wagner's book Cut and Thrust Weapons had notches, or only some rare examples. Intentionally or not, Wagner's book gives the impression that many Austrian pallasches and sabres from the first half of the 18thC had notches on their blades. Then the question is whether it's significant that these notches occur on blades which were used by Austrian cavalry during the time of Prince Eugene of Savoy, or whether this is a mere coincidence. Finally I would be interested to see photos of Prussian, French, or other swords with similar notches on their blades to prove that the practice was not limited to Austria.

20th April 2017, 05:48 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Actually it is interesting to revisit this very old research, and try to find old notes. I think here it is important to note a caveat to researchers. One thing I think many of us at this for a very long time (usually more years than we care to admit), it is not always the case that because something is written in a book, it is always correct. Most authors note this fact in the introductions, and readily accept that new evidence may render some of their comments and findings to be incorrect. I have always had the highest respect for those with the courage and tenacity to publish, and have maintained the highest regard for the works of many now venerable authors of key references we all often use and cite as resources. Over the years however, we have often found cases of mistakes and other long held ideas now disproven. In one case, while researching a topic and checking a reference in an article by a well known author, I asked about a particular observation which I needed to verify to support a theory. Apparently the statement was made by him as an assumption from an unsubstantiated source, which he openly admitted, and for which I admired his honesty. Though discouraged, it reinforced the importance of rechecking and cross checking material and sources. Now turning to Wagner's reference ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967, p.339) I found the quote in notes (I do not have the book at the moment)..... "...the tooth, cut in the back edge, helped the 'old hewers' to aggravate the wound when thrusting, especially when cutting with the back edge of the broadsword, where there was no room to put much strength into the cut". This entry seems presumed, the suggestion to the tooth (notch) in aggravating the thrust wound as I have noted seems dangerous in that the blade would become snagged in that wound. However, the note about cutting with the back edge of the blade suggests a back stroke as might be used in the close quarters of melee, which may be what Wagner means by 'no room for strength to the cut'. This seems to make some degree of sense, as these kinds of wounds, not necessarily debilitating may have been in the sense of the 'stramazone', a slashing across the face to cause distracting bleeding, used in dueling with rapiers. I found that the references to the 'old hewers; referred to the "War of the Spanish Succession" (1701-14), where the Austrian army still was using many of the older swords from the Thirty Years War as well as forms from continuous war with Turkey. There seem to have a wide scope of forms, but clearly reaching the end of their working lives. These forces in 1701 were indeed led by Eugene of Savoy (d.1736). In Wagner, there are actually five exemplars illustrated with the notch feature: Plate 2, p.372, a cavalry broadsword of beginning of 18th c. Prince Eugene inscription. Plate 3, an Austrian cuirassier broadsword early 18th c. Plate 7, an Austrian heavy cavalry broadsword in use until c.1740 Plate 35, a Pandour officers sabre c.1747, Hungarian Plate 39, an Austrian hussar sergeants sabre 1768 All of these are notched at back of blade near tip. I recall having thought at one time that these notched had to do with the notorious Pandour units, however it seems only that one officers sabre had the notch. There are no other examples throughout the book which have any such notch, only these Austrian examples, which seem anomalies. I have never (since research began c. 1994) found sound reference to other notched blades other than unsubstantiated comments from other collectors and dealers who had seen them on French examples in cases. I have seen a British sabre of c.1780 with this exact notch but have not the details to support . It would seem the other instances mentioned regarding the Prussian cases are similarly surmised. In original research in the 90s, I wanted to confirm that the examples in Wagner actually had the notch and this was not artists license, so I contacted the museums he cited for the originals. While they sent me photos of the original swords, when asked, the officials typically claimed they 'had no idea what the notches were for'. This seemed surprising as these were primarily Czech museums, where Wagner had been a curator.