Austrian hussar sabre for ID

[corrado26]

A minute ago a friend told me that such notches are not limited to Austrian swords but can be found at Prussian swords too. He had red in a book (he cannot remember the title) that plundering cavalry troops after a battle rode over the "field of honor" and with the notches in the blades of their swords collected cartouche boxes, bread sacks, knapsacks etc. in order to find eatable things or other lute

corrado26

[Victrix]

Corrado,
Many thanks for including Jiri Protiva's book (another one not in my library) in the discussion. Now we have a published argument for the utilitarian purpose for the notch on sword tips from what must be considered an expert in the niche area of Austro-Hungarian pallasches! Clearly the topic deserves an open mind. My critique of this argument is that it's unusual for military to design their main weapons for utilitarian purposes like this unless engineers, etc. The military tends to be strict about troopers altering their weapons for private purposes. It's also not clear why a little notch would make it much easier to pick things from the ground with a sword, unless apples? Couldn't the troops use a wooden stick for the purpose instead? Jim mentioned the risk of the sword snagging. The notch could easily snag in the reins or equipment during a melee and pose risks to the user. Wagner's Cut & Thrust Weapons only shows Austro-Hungarian swords with notches, I could not find any German ones. Separately, I can't find any Swedish swords with notches. Were Swedish cavalry not interested in picking up things from the ground?

Wagner's argument for the notch makes sense from a physical point of view. The critique is that this seems uncharacterically cruel. The supporting argument could be that these notches on swords were perhaps used in South Eastern Europe, where the nature of conflict was more intense and there was less emphasis on chivalry? It would be interesting to find out if some pallasches of a particular model have notches and some don't, which could suggest that some swords might have been adapted to different theatres of war? Most of the swords with notches in Wagner's book are in the Military Museum of Prague, but this might not mean anything as I understand most Austrian heavy cavalry regiments (users of pallasches) were from Bohemia?

Greetings from a snowy Stockholm!

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Corrado for that supportive detail and the title of that reference!
It is most important to have such details as we pursue this unusual topic, which seems to have been largely unnoticed in most works except Wagner's.

As I have mentioned, this seems to have been a 'field application' and certainly nothing either done or permitted in arsenals or officially purposed armourers. It is good to know (and quite frankly not surprising) that the Prussians have instances of this practice as well. In discussions with other authorities I have been told the same of some French swords in these periods.
Again, the Protiva reference seems to carry forth the same suggestions from the Wagner reference, while the other Prussian related note is of the same type circumstantial mention as with the French case I noted.

It is important to note that the larger European armies including France and Prussia adopted what were known as 'grenzer' units which were auxiliary forces for skirmishing and foraging. The Austrians continued these as well although the original 'pandour' units of von Trenck had been disbanded.
The 'grenzer' term meant 'border guard' as these were essentially what the original pandurs had been prior to adaption to military purpose

The idea that these forces were actually intended for foraging suggests some strength in the idea that they would be engaged in collecting such useful items after battle. However why then would 'officers' swords be notched as well? would these 'duties' not be ascribed to regular troopers?
Also, if these notches were so intended, why then are some placed effectively 'backwards' where they could not serve as a 'hook' ?

The next important question for the pallasches would be that a notched blade would not only snag in a thrust, but in many cases, effectively remove the now imbedded weapon from its user and expose him to other combatants unarmed. In a melee, this would mean his end in mere seconds from surrounding enemy.

The idea of the horrifying notion of toothed blades (as Burton addressed and I noted in my earlier post) as deliberately inhumane weapons intended to frighten the enemy is actually more 'lore' than reality. In my personal findings on this I found that the most well known of the 'toothed' bayonets, the Schmitt-Rubin of the 1880s used by German forces in WWI, generated these kinds of stories among the British forces. The British, thinking these were 'designed' for this horrifying purpose, offered no quarter to any soldier found with one of these. For this reason, many of the German forces took to grinding down the back of the blades. I do not recall the source of this data but I think it was the late Roger Evans who told me that.

This same hatred toward lancer troops was well known in the Napoleonic campaigns, as the lance wounds carried all manner of debris and infecting material into the wound which brought an excruciating and often prolonged end to those who survived the initial thrust wound. The idea of 'worsening' a thrust wound physically, at the risk of imbedding the weapon out of service, is of course most unlikely in my opinion.

While the more pragmatic ideas of utility have a degree of plausibility, they seem equally unlikely (there was some levity as I talked with several fencing masters at one academy, and one suggested 'can opener'?...in jest).

While I think even Occam would have thrown up his hands on this one, there HAS to be an explanation to this less than usual, but profoundly notable practice in these times on blades.

[Victrix]

Jim,

This quote might come in handy for future reference regarding the notorious German bayonets: "We overhaul the bayonets...the ones that have a saw on the blunt edge. If the fellows over there catch a man with one of those, he's killed at sight." (Erich Maria Remarque, All Quiet on the Western Front).

There seems to be a parallel discussion about the purpose of notches on knives on the internet. I guess it's highly implausible that the notches on pallasch and sabre blade tips could be intended to catch the opponents' blades and wrest those out of their hands? Apparently there's also something called a "Spanish notch" on Bowie knives which is something else?

I guess the existence of notches on Prussian and French sword blades are only hearsay so far. It would be nice to discover photos of some examples to prove their existence.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Victrix! This is quite a trip down memory lane, and researches from many years back which were fascinating and actually pretty great adventures.
Interesting note on the Remarque novel, of course an all time classic which observed the accounts on those bayonets. I recall one of those being one of my very first weapons I collected as a kid, back in the early 60s. I thought it was pretty scary and my friends thought I was nuts for having such a ghastly thing...no need to mention my parents thoughts!

Thank you for that quote!!! I had never known of that in that book, but of course knew the movie well.

The old blade catcher myth is another well used chestnut, and pretty well dispelled by Egerton Castle, in "Schools and Masters of Fence" (1885) particularly with the toothed 'sword breakers'. These were primarily novelties with the left hand daggers basically out of use by their time according to his findings. It is virtually the same instance with most other 'sword catching' features such as notches, and only quillons and guards served such purposes, then usually nominally.

The 'Spanish notch' is another one which came up in my research years ago (now I really want to find these notes!). It was in an article in a magazine around 1979, and I cannot recall the authors name. No satisfactory conclusion was ever found but it seems these notches on the back of the blade were on 'Meditteranean' knives. These were typically used aboard ships by sailors, who used them of course as weapons in the expected knife fights among themselves. It was from these that the Bowie brothers learned the art of knife fighting, and it is believed that they were ancestors of the fabled 'Bowie' knife.
I was told by a blacksmith working in the James Black smithy in Arkansas, home of the 'Bowie', that Black always 'notched' his blades. These had no purpose but were a vestigial nod to those early knives, mostly Spanish but many French ( prevalent in Louisiana of course).

It is in that rather 'honorific' sense that these were notched that makes me wonder of there is perhaps some such 'gesture' or symbolic notion which might have been behind these mysteriously applied features.

Thank you for sharing in pondering these curious notches, and for your patience as I drag out all these research memories!

[Jim McDougall]

For the record, three pages from Wagner (I think there are about 8 examples) and another blade with notches but source unk.

Actually in some notes I found, there is mention of reins being the object of attack where if a riders reins were cut, and control of his horse lost, he was in serious trouble in melee action. There were cases in which this actually prompted reins with guards or chain I believe.
Also, by the same token perhaps these notches could help a rider retrieve his reins if dropped without dismounting?

[corrado26]

Thank you very much - I take this for a very good and plausible thought, really a very good explanation and perhaps the best I have red until today.
corrado26

[kronckew]

Since there was no illustration of the Spanish Notch:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...

The 'Spanish notch' is another one which came up in my research years ago (now I really want to find these notes!). It was in an article in a magazine around 1979, and I cannot recall the authors name. No satisfactory conclusion was ever found but it seems these notches on the back of the blade were on 'Meditteranean' knives. These were typically used aboard ships by sailors, who used them of course as weapons in the expected knife fights among themselves. It was from these that the Bowie brothers learned the art of knife fighting, and it is believed that they were ancestors of the fabled 'Bowie' knife.
I was told by a blacksmith working in the James Black smithy in Arkansas, home of the 'Bowie', that Black always 'notched' his blades. These had no purpose but were a vestigial nod to those early knives, mostly Spanish but many French ( prevalent in Louisiana of course).
...

Originally Posted by From wiki:

Some Bowie knives had a notch on the bottom of the blade near the hilt known as a "Spanish Notch". The Spanish Notch is often cited as a mechanism for catching an opponent's blade; however, some Bowie researchers hold that the Spanish Notch is ill-suited to this function and frequently fails to achieve the desired results. These researchers, instead, hold that the Spanish Notch has the much more mundane function as a tool for stripping sinew and repairing rope and nets, as a guide to assist in sharpening the blade (assuring that the sharpening process starts at a specific point and not further up the edge), or as a point to relieve stress on the blade during use.

A picture is worth a ....aw, you know...


My 'Fowler' Bowie with the 'Spanish' notch:
I suspect it is just a traditional decorative feature, much like the cho or kaudi on a khukuri, which also has a 'nobody really knows why' reputation. I have other bowies with various 'spanish notches'. I'll add a thought that they were the starting point for sharpening. Which looks like the reason for the very plain notch on my smaller "gambler's" bowie at the bottom.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by kronckew

Since there was no illustration of the Spanish Notch:

A picture is worth a ....aw, you know...

My 'Fowler' Bowie with the 'Spanish' notch:
I suspect it is just a traditional decorative feature, much like the cho or kaudi on a khukuri, which also has a 'nobody really knows why' reputation. I have other bowies with various 'spanish notches'. I'll add a thought that they were the starting point for sharpening. Which looks like the reason for the very plain notch on my smaller "gambler's" bowie at the bottom.

Interesting. I had always believed a Spanish notch was an indention in a self-guard to help prevent the hand from slipping forward onto a blade. To me the second illustration shows a choil used to prevent the thick and hard to sharpen portion of a blade at the end of the ricasso (which this blade lacks).
I personally have always found the choil more of a nuisance than a help especially if the distal end of the notch doesn't slope towards the point. That said I have been told that large choils are used with big knives to allow fingering the blade to help with delicate tasks. I have heard, and maybe read it on this site as well, that specially shaped choils on some knife patterns help with tasks that are regionally common. I always wondered if the cho didn't start that way, or maybe it is just a linga.

The first example seems to somewhere between all three a notch, a choil, and decoration. I am sorry not to have my own illustrations. I delayed this post almost a week and realized I would never publish it if I waited on pictures any longer.