Austrian hussar sabre for ID

Victrix · 16th April 2017, 06:43 PM

Corrado,

Thanks for posting more pictures! The FRINGIA blade is nice. Wagner has a few sabres with notches in his big book. I hope you are right about the purpose for the notch.

Happy Easter to you all.

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2017, 10:51 PM

Corrado, as noted Wagner (1967) has at least two sabres shown with these notches, as I explained earlier, and which brought even more thought toward why these would worsen thrust wounds, when a sabre from horseback is a slashing and cutting weapon.

As for utilitarian use, it is a tenuously applied suggestion for picking up things of the ground from horseback (note the direction of the 'hook' in the notch on the first photo) and other ideas as holding a pot handle over a campfire etc.

The idea of these notches being damage caused is patently dismissed by the consistant and deliberate placement at same blade location on the numerous examples. Even Burton (1885) noted an instance of a toothed edge which seemed a singular case, "...it is not easy to explain except by individual freak, the meaning of the toothed or broken edge which appears on a dagger of the 14th c.". This is drawn as a deliberately shaped notch at midpoint on the blade, which defies accidental probability......and more so, the reason why it is there.

This conundrum has defied the many authorities, museum officials, collectors and authors I have consulted over the years, so none of these explanations seem to satisfy any purpose or logic in this feature.
I apologize for any derailment in the thread here, but wanted to bring this mysterious feature to the attention of the clearly very well informed participants in this discussion of the weapons in this context.

Thank you guys for the thoughtful entries and great photos! This strange dilemma has plagued me for many years, so I hope you guys don't get the thing too!

corrado26 · 17th April 2017, 11:33 AM

Two years ago a new book by Jiri Protiva was published under the title "Pallasche der Habsburger Monarchie" (Pallashs of the Habsburg Monarchy). The main part of the book is written in Czech language, but at the ende there is a summery in German language and there you can find on page 164 the sentence you see on the foto attached. In Emglish it reads as follows:
Remarkable too is the barbed hook or notch which we can see at some pallashs from this time at their back site. Its meaning is differently explained, often with the intention to hurt the enemy deeper as normally. The most simple explanation however is, that this notche is a hook, used for collecting fallen down objects without leaving the horseback.

I think, these notches have been in use for both possibilities. Very interesting for me would be to find out who made these notches, were they made in the factory or by the user.
corrado26

corrado26 · 17th April 2017, 11:48 AM

A minute ago a friend told me that such notches are not limited to Austrian swords but can be found at Prussian swords too. He had red in a book (he cannot remember the title) that plundering cavalry troops after a battle rode over the "field of honor" and with the notches in the blades of their swords collected cartouche boxes, bread sacks, knapsacks etc. in order to find eatable things or other lute

corrado26

Victrix · 17th April 2017, 03:37 PM

Corrado,
Many thanks for including Jiri Protiva's book (another one not in my library) in the discussion. Now we have a published argument for the utilitarian purpose for the notch on sword tips from what must be considered an expert in the niche area of Austro-Hungarian pallasches! Clearly the topic deserves an open mind. My critique of this argument is that it's unusual for military to design their main weapons for utilitarian purposes like this unless engineers, etc. The military tends to be strict about troopers altering their weapons for private purposes. It's also not clear why a little notch would make it much easier to pick things from the ground with a sword, unless apples? Couldn't the troops use a wooden stick for the purpose instead? Jim mentioned the risk of the sword snagging. The notch could easily snag in the reins or equipment during a melee and pose risks to the user. Wagner's Cut & Thrust Weapons only shows Austro-Hungarian swords with notches, I could not find any German ones. Separately, I can't find any Swedish swords with notches. Were Swedish cavalry not interested in picking up things from the ground?

Wagner's argument for the notch makes sense from a physical point of view. The critique is that this seems uncharacterically cruel. The supporting argument could be that these notches on swords were perhaps used in South Eastern Europe, where the nature of conflict was more intense and there was less emphasis on chivalry? It would be interesting to find out if some pallasches of a particular model have notches and some don't, which could suggest that some swords might have been adapted to different theatres of war? Most of the swords with notches in Wagner's book are in the Military Museum of Prague, but this might not mean anything as I understand most Austrian heavy cavalry regiments (users of pallasches) were from Bohemia?

Greetings from a snowy Stockholm!

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2017, 06:12 PM

Thank you Corrado for that supportive detail and the title of that reference!
It is most important to have such details as we pursue this unusual topic, which seems to have been largely unnoticed in most works except Wagner's.

As I have mentioned, this seems to have been a 'field application' and certainly nothing either done or permitted in arsenals or officially purposed armourers. It is good to know (and quite frankly not surprising) that the Prussians have instances of this practice as well. In discussions with other authorities I have been told the same of some French swords in these periods.
Again, the Protiva reference seems to carry forth the same suggestions from the Wagner reference, while the other Prussian related note is of the same type circumstantial mention as with the French case I noted.

It is important to note that the larger European armies including France and Prussia adopted what were known as 'grenzer' units which were auxiliary forces for skirmishing and foraging. The Austrians continued these as well although the original 'pandour' units of von Trenck had been disbanded.
The 'grenzer' term meant 'border guard' as these were essentially what the original pandurs had been prior to adaption to military purpose

The idea that these forces were actually intended for foraging suggests some strength in the idea that they would be engaged in collecting such useful items after battle. However why then would 'officers' swords be notched as well? would these 'duties' not be ascribed to regular troopers?
Also, if these notches were so intended, why then are some placed effectively 'backwards' where they could not serve as a 'hook' ?

The next important question for the pallasches would be that a notched blade would not only snag in a thrust, but in many cases, effectively remove the now imbedded weapon from its user and expose him to other combatants unarmed. In a melee, this would mean his end in mere seconds from surrounding enemy.

The idea of the horrifying notion of toothed blades (as Burton addressed and I noted in my earlier post) as deliberately inhumane weapons intended to frighten the enemy is actually more 'lore' than reality. In my personal findings on this I found that the most well known of the 'toothed' bayonets, the Schmitt-Rubin of the 1880s used by German forces in WWI, generated these kinds of stories among the British forces. The British, thinking these were 'designed' for this horrifying purpose, offered no quarter to any soldier found with one of these. For this reason, many of the German forces took to grinding down the back of the blades. I do not recall the source of this data but I think it was the late Roger Evans who told me that.

This same hatred toward lancer troops was well known in the Napoleonic campaigns, as the lance wounds carried all manner of debris and infecting material into the wound which brought an excruciating and often prolonged end to those who survived the initial thrust wound. The idea of 'worsening' a thrust wound physically, at the risk of imbedding the weapon out of service, is of course most unlikely in my opinion.

While the more pragmatic ideas of utility have a degree of plausibility, they seem equally unlikely (there was some levity as I talked with several fencing masters at one academy, and one suggested 'can opener'?...in jest).

While I think even Occam would have thrown up his hands on this one, there HAS to be an explanation to this less than usual, but profoundly notable practice in these times on blades.

Victrix · 17th April 2017, 09:36 PM

Jim,

This quote might come in handy for future reference regarding the notorious German bayonets: "We overhaul the bayonets...the ones that have a saw on the blunt edge. If the fellows over there catch a man with one of those, he's killed at sight." (Erich Maria Remarque, All Quiet on the Western Front).

There seems to be a parallel discussion about the purpose of notches on knives on the internet. I guess it's highly implausible that the notches on pallasch and sabre blade tips could be intended to catch the opponents' blades and wrest those out of their hands? Apparently there's also something called a "Spanish notch" on Bowie knives which is something else?

I guess the existence of notches on Prussian and French sword blades are only hearsay so far. It would be nice to discover photos of some examples to prove their existence.

16th April 2017, 06:43 PM	#1
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Notch Corrado, Thanks for posting more pictures! The FRINGIA blade is nice. Wagner has a few sabres with notches in his big book. I hope you are right about the purpose for the notch. Happy Easter to you all.

17th April 2017, 11:33 AM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	Two years ago a new book by Jiri Protiva was published under the title "Pallasche der Habsburger Monarchie" (Pallashs of the Habsburg Monarchy). The main part of the book is written in Czech language, but at the ende there is a summery in German language and there you can find on page 164 the sentence you see on the foto attached. In Emglish it reads as follows: Remarkable too is the barbed hook or notch which we can see at some pallashs from this time at their back site. Its meaning is differently explained, often with the intention to hurt the enemy deeper as normally. The most simple explanation however is, that this notche is a hook, used for collecting fallen down objects without leaving the horseback. I think, these notches have been in use for both possibilities. Very interesting for me would be to find out who made these notches, were they made in the factory or by the user. corrado26 Attached Images

17th April 2017, 03:37 PM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Purpose of notch Corrado, Many thanks for including Jiri Protiva's book (another one not in my library) in the discussion. Now we have a published argument for the utilitarian purpose for the notch on sword tips from what must be considered an expert in the niche area of Austro-Hungarian pallasches! Clearly the topic deserves an open mind. My critique of this argument is that it's unusual for military to design their main weapons for utilitarian purposes like this unless engineers, etc. The military tends to be strict about troopers altering their weapons for private purposes. It's also not clear why a little notch would make it much easier to pick things from the ground with a sword, unless apples? Couldn't the troops use a wooden stick for the purpose instead? Jim mentioned the risk of the sword snagging. The notch could easily snag in the reins or equipment during a melee and pose risks to the user. Wagner's Cut & Thrust Weapons only shows Austro-Hungarian swords with notches, I could not find any German ones. Separately, I can't find any Swedish swords with notches. Were Swedish cavalry not interested in picking up things from the ground? Wagner's argument for the notch makes sense from a physical point of view. The critique is that this seems uncharacterically cruel. The supporting argument could be that these notches on swords were perhaps used in South Eastern Europe, where the nature of conflict was more intense and there was less emphasis on chivalry? It would be interesting to find out if some pallasches of a particular model have notches and some don't, which could suggest that some swords might have been adapted to different theatres of war? Most of the swords with notches in Wagner's book are in the Military Museum of Prague, but this might not mean anything as I understand most Austrian heavy cavalry regiments (users of pallasches) were from Bohemia? Greetings from a snowy Stockholm!

17th April 2017, 09:36 PM	#7
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	More on the notch Jim, This quote might come in handy for future reference regarding the notorious German bayonets: "We overhaul the bayonets...the ones that have a saw on the blunt edge. If the fellows over there catch a man with one of those, he's killed at sight." (Erich Maria Remarque, All Quiet on the Western Front). There seems to be a parallel discussion about the purpose of notches on knives on the internet. I guess it's highly implausible that the notches on pallasch and sabre blade tips could be intended to catch the opponents' blades and wrest those out of their hands? Apparently there's also something called a "Spanish notch" on Bowie knives which is something else? I guess the existence of notches on Prussian and French sword blades are only hearsay so far. It would be nice to discover photos of some examples to prove their existence.

16th April 2017, 10:51 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Corrado, as noted Wagner (1967) has at least two sabres shown with these notches, as I explained earlier, and which brought even more thought toward why these would worsen thrust wounds, when a sabre from horseback is a slashing and cutting weapon. As for utilitarian use, it is a tenuously applied suggestion for picking up things of the ground from horseback (note the direction of the 'hook' in the notch on the first photo) and other ideas as holding a pot handle over a campfire etc. The idea of these notches being damage caused is patently dismissed by the consistant and deliberate placement at same blade location on the numerous examples. Even Burton (1885) noted an instance of a toothed edge which seemed a singular case, "...it is not easy to explain except by individual freak, the meaning of the toothed or broken edge which appears on a dagger of the 14th c.". This is drawn as a deliberately shaped notch at midpoint on the blade, which defies accidental probability......and more so, the reason why it is there. This conundrum has defied the many authorities, museum officials, collectors and authors I have consulted over the years, so none of these explanations seem to satisfy any purpose or logic in this feature. I apologize for any derailment in the thread here, but wanted to bring this mysterious feature to the attention of the clearly very well informed participants in this discussion of the weapons in this context. Thank you guys for the thoughtful entries and great photos! This strange dilemma has plagued me for many years, so I hope you guys don't get the thing too!

17th April 2017, 11:48 AM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	A minute ago a friend told me that such notches are not limited to Austrian swords but can be found at Prussian swords too. He had red in a book (he cannot remember the title) that plundering cavalry troops after a battle rode over the "field of honor" and with the notches in the blades of their swords collected cartouche boxes, bread sacks, knapsacks etc. in order to find eatable things or other lute corrado26

17th April 2017, 06:12 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Thank you Corrado for that supportive detail and the title of that reference! It is most important to have such details as we pursue this unusual topic, which seems to have been largely unnoticed in most works except Wagner's. As I have mentioned, this seems to have been a 'field application' and certainly nothing either done or permitted in arsenals or officially purposed armourers. It is good to know (and quite frankly not surprising) that the Prussians have instances of this practice as well. In discussions with other authorities I have been told the same of some French swords in these periods. Again, the Protiva reference seems to carry forth the same suggestions from the Wagner reference, while the other Prussian related note is of the same type circumstantial mention as with the French case I noted. It is important to note that the larger European armies including France and Prussia adopted what were known as 'grenzer' units which were auxiliary forces for skirmishing and foraging. The Austrians continued these as well although the original 'pandour' units of von Trenck had been disbanded. The 'grenzer' term meant 'border guard' as these were essentially what the original pandurs had been prior to adaption to military purpose The idea that these forces were actually intended for foraging suggests some strength in the idea that they would be engaged in collecting such useful items after battle. However why then would 'officers' swords be notched as well? would these 'duties' not be ascribed to regular troopers? Also, if these notches were so intended, why then are some placed effectively 'backwards' where they could not serve as a 'hook' ? The next important question for the pallasches would be that a notched blade would not only snag in a thrust, but in many cases, effectively remove the now imbedded weapon from its user and expose him to other combatants unarmed. In a melee, this would mean his end in mere seconds from surrounding enemy. The idea of the horrifying notion of toothed blades (as Burton addressed and I noted in my earlier post) as deliberately inhumane weapons intended to frighten the enemy is actually more 'lore' than reality. In my personal findings on this I found that the most well known of the 'toothed' bayonets, the Schmitt-Rubin of the 1880s used by German forces in WWI, generated these kinds of stories among the British forces. The British, thinking these were 'designed' for this horrifying purpose, offered no quarter to any soldier found with one of these. For this reason, many of the German forces took to grinding down the back of the blades. I do not recall the source of this data but I think it was the late Roger Evans who told me that. This same hatred toward lancer troops was well known in the Napoleonic campaigns, as the lance wounds carried all manner of debris and infecting material into the wound which brought an excruciating and often prolonged end to those who survived the initial thrust wound. The idea of 'worsening' a thrust wound physically, at the risk of imbedding the weapon out of service, is of course most unlikely in my opinion. While the more pragmatic ideas of utility have a degree of plausibility, they seem equally unlikely (there was some levity as I talked with several fencing masters at one academy, and one suggested 'can opener'?...in jest). While I think even Occam would have thrown up his hands on this one, there HAS to be an explanation to this less than usual, but profoundly notable practice in these times on blades.