German Executioner's sword Early 17TH century ?

Jim McDougall · 11th April 2017, 09:33 PM

It is great to have input from Philip on this, as it seems in discussions over the years he has placed most valuable insight into this esoteric topic, much of it gained from his research in locations key to much of the history.

As I continued my own research on this, I have found that many of these swords were indeed in use as 'heading swords' in German states and East European, some Slavic countries. Those which indeed served as 'instruments' in this grim purpose were usually quite austere, though often with the latten gibbet and wheel (of justice) inlaid in the blade.
It does seem, from some sources, noted that many of these swords when no longer 'in service' , actually became 'swords of justice' which were held up or paraded in judicial circumstances. It is suggested that this seems to have been the occasion when many of these were given the three hole application near the point.

This much disputed feature seems to elude any pragmatic solution, or even any other explanation, but the release of evil after its use in dispatch of criminals through the three holes (of the Holy Trinity) appears to be most widely held.

Many of these swords were finely embellished and decorated, and were probably intended as swords of justice as a court accoutrement from the beginning.

With these findings as well as with Philip's well observed notes it seems well supported that this is most likely an true heading sword as surmised.

CSinTX · 12th April 2017, 02:56 PM

Is anyone else suspicious of the patina on the blade on this piece?

Cerjak · 12th April 2017, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSinTX

Is anyone else suspicious of the patina on the blade on this piece?

You always seem suspicious !

CSinTX · 12th April 2017, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

You always seem suspicious !

With the prevalence of forgery, shouldn't we all be at all times?

This forum acts as an online library for years to come. I hate to call out possible issues but feel it is important to the integrity of the information that is stored here.

I appreciate all of the items you bring to the forum. Please don't take my opinion (that's all it is and maybe I'm wrong) as an attack. If you or anyone else ever see issue with an item I post, then please bring it up. Maybe you can point out something I had not considered. Personally, I feel it would be wrong to see a concern and not mention it. Others will come along in the future and see it and accept it as correct. If it is mentioned, then at least it gets them thinking on their own.

As to the patina on this blade, do you see how it appears in a "liquid like" pattern? As if it was applied as a fluid that dried and then proceeded to rust and pit? Does that seem natural?

Foxbat · 12th April 2017, 06:47 PM

I have to say that I had similar concerns, and I went back and forth a few times, trying to convince myself. Some elements look perfectly fine, but the sharp edges of the pits, especially coupled to the fairly intact decorations, do raise some questions.

However, on the plus side, considering these are not such scarce items, why would one go to this depth, when just a small amount of even patina (not hard to do) would bring it in line with what is more typically found?

At this point I am 70-30 in favor of giving it a pass.

Jim McDougall · 12th April 2017, 08:00 PM

This is an interesting development, and I am probably one of the worst at discerning these kinds of details in weapons posted. However, I think that it is always good to be guarded in authentication of weapons, and from photos it is by far the hardest.
I very much appreciate this attitude being in place, and agree with what CS notes. These notations not only keep our awareness in tune, but present instructional views which help all of us learn what to watch for...a most important factor for collectors especially.

I think Philip is probably one of the most discerning persons when it comes to evaluating and examining weapons, and by his omission of such concerns I would presume all to be well with this piece.

However, the character of the patination does seem unusual as noted in a number of areas. I am wondering if perhaps at some point in time there might have been some type of 'restoration' or preservation attempt which might lead to this character?
There seems to be good goethite presence on the pommel, and in noticing the latten markings on the blade......the 'chop' marks that are seen over the gibbet and other seem characteristic of authentic old markings. It does not seem this detail would be included in later applications.

11th April 2017, 09:33 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	It is great to have input from Philip on this, as it seems in discussions over the years he has placed most valuable insight into this esoteric topic, much of it gained from his research in locations key to much of the history. As I continued my own research on this, I have found that many of these swords were indeed in use as 'heading swords' in German states and East European, some Slavic countries. Those which indeed served as 'instruments' in this grim purpose were usually quite austere, though often with the latten gibbet and wheel (of justice) inlaid in the blade. It does seem, from some sources, noted that many of these swords when no longer 'in service' , actually became 'swords of justice' which were held up or paraded in judicial circumstances. It is suggested that this seems to have been the occasion when many of these were given the three hole application near the point. This much disputed feature seems to elude any pragmatic solution, or even any other explanation, but the release of evil after its use in dispatch of criminals through the three holes (of the Holy Trinity) appears to be most widely held. Many of these swords were finely embellished and decorated, and were probably intended as swords of justice as a court accoutrement from the beginning. With these findings as well as with Philip's well observed notes it seems well supported that this is most likely an true heading sword as surmised.

12th April 2017, 02:56 PM	#2
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	Is anyone else suspicious of the patina on the blade on this piece?

12th April 2017, 06:47 PM	#5
Foxbat Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 69	I have to say that I had similar concerns, and I went back and forth a few times, trying to convince myself. Some elements look perfectly fine, but the sharp edges of the pits, especially coupled to the fairly intact decorations, do raise some questions. However, on the plus side, considering these are not such scarce items, why would one go to this depth, when just a small amount of even patina (not hard to do) would bring it in line with what is more typically found? At this point I am 70-30 in favor of giving it a pass.

12th April 2017, 08:00 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	This is an interesting development, and I am probably one of the worst at discerning these kinds of details in weapons posted. However, I think that it is always good to be guarded in authentication of weapons, and from photos it is by far the hardest. I very much appreciate this attitude being in place, and agree with what CS notes. These notations not only keep our awareness in tune, but present instructional views which help all of us learn what to watch for...a most important factor for collectors especially. I think Philip is probably one of the most discerning persons when it comes to evaluating and examining weapons, and by his omission of such concerns I would presume all to be well with this piece. However, the character of the patination does seem unusual as noted in a number of areas. I am wondering if perhaps at some point in time there might have been some type of 'restoration' or preservation attempt which might lead to this character? There seems to be good goethite presence on the pommel, and in noticing the latten markings on the blade......the 'chop' marks that are seen over the gibbet and other seem characteristic of authentic old markings. It does not seem this detail would be included in later applications.