Frey Collection Picit

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks Jean. I posted a similar link directly to the piece in question above in post #17.
From what i understand this keris went for more than 3 times estimated price.

A typical kris for "nouveaux riches"

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

A typical kris for "nouveaux riches"

LOL! I was not aware that collection of keris was now a fad amongst the nouveau riche.
As we all know the price for a nice keris can run really high for a any number of reasons. If the bidder truly felt this was solid gold as claimed that would, of course, add to the material cost of this keris. The ivory parts, with paperwork attesting to it antiquity also adds to that material value. But other factors are probably at play here as well. Being a part of an acknowledged private collection of an established and generally respected author on keris probably adds some value for certain collectors just as any item that can be established as having belonged to a well know person or celebrity. It is a piece that was published in a book most keris collectors probably own. But i would also like to draw your attention once again to the elephant in the room which very few here seem to want to engage in discussion on. This is what appears to be a pre-WWII (at least) keris picit of Malaysian origin. I think your call of early 20th Century might well be correct, but judging the exact era when this keris was made seems difficult. It may be older for all i know. As such, at least from what i know, this is a rather rare specimen. Please, someone, show me another non-contemporary keris picit made in Malaysia. Show me one even not made in Jawa. I can't say i have ever seen one. So from a collector's perspective this seems to be a rather unusual item and as we all know, rare items in the keris world will demand high prices. Whether the pendok is solid gold or not might not be a driving factor in that equation.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

But i would also like to draw your attention once again to the elephant in the room which very few here seem to want to engage in discussion on. This is what appears to be a pre-WWII (at least) keris picit of Malaysian origin. I think your call of early 20th Century might well be correct, but judging the exact era when this keris was made seems difficult. It may be older for all i know. As such, at least from what i know, this is a rather rare specimen. Please, someone, show me another non-contemporary keris picit made in Malaysia. Show me one even not made in Jawa. I can't say i have ever seen one. So from a collector's perspective this seems to be a rather unusual item and as we all know, rare items in the keris world will demand high prices. Whether the pendok is solid gold or not might not be a driving factor in that equation.

Hello David,
Regarding your valid question about the origin and age of this picit blade I am referring to the book "Keris and other Malay weapons" from G.B. Garner (ex-Johor Civil Service agent) first published in 1936 and one of the few reference books about Malaysian weapons, but not a very reliable source IMO. In pages 33, 34, and 36 of his book he describes and shows pictures of some krisses picit from his collection without mentioning their area of origin (Malaysia?), although they look quite similar to the Javanese ones (the pics are very poor). He also refers to forgeries of Trengganu Majapahit-picit krisses with a broad punched blade and integral hilt.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello David,
Regarding your valid question about the origin and age of this picit blade I am referring to the book "Keris and other Malay weapons" from G.B. Garner (ex-Johor Civil Service agent) first published in 1936 and one of the few reference books about Malaysian weapons, but not a very reliable source IMO. In pages 33, 34, and 36 of his book he describes and shows pictures of some krisses picit from his collection without mentioning their area of origin (Malaysia?), although they look quite similar to the Javanese ones (the pics are very poor). He also refers to forgeries of Trengganu Majapahit-picit krisses with a broad punched blade and integral hilt.
Regards

Thanks Jean. I have and have read Gardner's book. I agree that he is not a particularly reliable source of information at times. I wish we had better images of the two keris sajen that he claims are "forgeries" made in Terengganu, or even more information about what he means when he says "forgeries". From the bad copies of photos in that book those blades do indeed look very much like Javanese keris sajen. He doesn't mention what convinced him that these examples were made in Teregganu. But if they were made in Terengganu i don't know why they would necessarily be considered "forgeries". Who would such "forgeries" have been made for? In the mid 1930s was there really a market for such things?
Gardner clearly does not understand the purpose of such keris (either keris sajen or picit) given this remark:
"Of the ten keris pichit I have only two that are thick enough to be used as keris; the others, being not much thicker than tin, would bend if used with any force, so I conclude they were used principally as talismans; but of course they may have been poisoned and used in the same way as k. majapahit ..." It would seem that at this point he limited his definition of keris solely to those that could be used as weapons (and he seems to have believed that keris sajen were not talismanic blades, but used as weapons in conjunction with poison).

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

He also refers to forgeries of Trengganu Majapahit-picit krisses with a broad punched blade and integral hilt.

I am also not convinced we can refer to any keris picit as "forgeries" simply because we suspect a broad punch was used to create the indentations. This is probably the case with many old keris picit for all we know. I don't think it is actually possible to prove that any picit was truly accomplished with only the bare fingers of the smith. Like Gardner i do believe that on very thin blades this method is indeed possible to accomplish, but to prove it one way or another for any particular keris would be quite impossible. Some indentations do tend to look more organic than others, but beyond that how would we know?
I am surprised to find that Gardner seems to dismiss the magickal power of such a method though, stating "Such a feat would be no more wonderful than firewalking. It is said that many professional conjurers use on their hands a mixture of camphor and styrax dissolved in spirit, and can then handle red hot iron with ease." Given that Gardner was indeed the father of modern Wicca and a practitioner of ceremonial and ritual magick in his day it seems odd that he would dismiss the use of bare finger tips transferring talismanic power into a blade as a mere parlor trick. From my perspective it is not that the act seems impossible to perform that determines the intent and purpose or power of the act. It is simply a direct transference of power by the empu into the blade. If "tricks" are used to make this operation possible it does not really diminish the act in the eyes of the empu or those that believe in its power. Of course, Gardner didn't fully begin to step into his magickal world view until 1939 so maybe these ideas were not fully formed in his mind at the time of this writing.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

I am also not convinced we can refer to any keris picit as "forgeries" simply because we suspect a broad punch was used to create the indentations.

I think that Gardner considered these pieces as forgeries because they were recently made contrary to the old original pieces (see one specimen of each type). I regret that he did not elaborate on the area of origin of his krisses picit.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

I think that Gardner considered these pieces as forgeries because they were recently made contrary to the old original pieces (see one specimen of each type). I regret that he did not elaborate on the area of origin of his krisses picit.

Well, Gardner calls keris sajen as keris majapahit. It seems, from his further commentary about keris sajen made with picit after the 1500s that he may not have considered these keris legitimate if they were not made during the Mojopahit empire. It does seem that now most collectors recognize that legitimate keris sajen were made well after the Mojopahit kingdom was in power.
Still, all this is a little off track since the keris in question is not a keris sajen. It seem that the only keris picit that Gardner talks about in this section are ones that are also keris sajen. This is true of the ones he claims were from Terengganu as well. But we do know that there is a tradition of talismanic keris with picit that are not in any way keris sajen. We must also keep in mind that Gardner did not spend any of his time in SEA Malaysia, except for a brief stint in Borneo. So the information he was receiving about Javanese keris and other keris outside Malaysia in all probability was not coming from natives to those specific areas. That he speaks of the keris sajen as being used as a weapon with a poisoned blade certainly makes all his subsequent information on the subject suspect.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

It seem that the only keris picit that Gardner talks about in this section are ones that are also keris sajen. We must also keep in mind that Gardner did not spend any of his time in SEA outside? Malaysia, except for a brief stint in Borneo. So the information he was receiving about Javanese keris and other keris outside Malaysia in all probability was not coming from natives to those specific areas.

Just a small comment: the krisses picit shown by Gardner on pics 27.6, 27.7, 28.1, and 39.4 are not sajen type and he makes a clear distinction between the 2 types IMO.
Regards

[kai]

Hello Jean,

A typical kris for "nouveaux riches"

Well, showing better taste than gem-studded smartphones, etc.

I'd guess that it went back home into SE Asia though - it's not unusual for special pieces to reach prices that most western collectors are not used to...

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

I'd guess that it went back home into SE Asia though - it's not unusual for special pieces to reach prices that most western collectors are not used to...

Yes, that is quite so...