"Malaysian kris/keris"

[A. G. Maisey]

"The Sundang is fairly well accepted as developing from some form of Indonesian keris."

This point has not been proven at all and is not even discussed in any literature on the keris. I don't think Cato even discussed it in his work on Moro swords."

Mr. de Luzon, your statement that the sundang is not proven to have developed from the Indonesian keris may be technically correct, but your statement does not reflect the consensus of opinion in this matter. As with many, if not most matters of a historic nature, absolute proof of origin of the weapon form that we now refer to as "keris" is probably impossible to present, however, a careful review of the available evidence of keris origin will demonstrate that the current consensus of opinion is very difficult to refute.

The weapon from which all keris have developed first appeared in Central Jawa during the Early Classical Period. All other types of keris developed from this first form, known today by scholars of the keris as the "Keris Buda".

The keris spread from Jawa through trade and gifting to other places throughout Maritime South East Asia. This spread probably began during the Majapahit era and continued during the Mataram era, indeed, by some measures, it could be considered to have continued up until the present day.

The sundang is a unique derivation of the original keris, this is certain, but it did come from the same root as all other keris.

Perhaps a little more generalised reading of the literature that deals with Javanese keris, and of the history of Jawa, most especially Javanese trade links, may be of value.

[Ian]

Alan and David:

Thank you for bringing your expertise and understanding of keris to the Ethnographic Forum. It is always good to refresh our understanding of the Moro kris and its origins. I think F. de Luzon is saying that he can find no clear evidence, to his satisfaction, that the Javanese keris begat the Moro kris. Like so much history of ethnographic weapons, this transition was not documented at the time and we are left to surmise the facts. Certainly, we can find older Moro kris that look more like Indonesian keris, and the keris clearly predated the kris, but that's about as far as the evidence takes us.

The back migration of the Moro kris to the "Malay sundang" is an interesting concept, and I'm struggling to think of another similar example in the area of edged weapons. The observation that Moro kris appear to have been imported into Malaysia for the manufacture of recent Malay sundang seems plausible, but I'm not sure to what purpose that would have occurred other than to market these for tourists and collectors.

Perhaps this topic has run its course for now.

Ian.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by Ian

Alan and David:

Thank you for bringing your expertise and understanding of keris to the Ethnographic Forum. It is always good to refresh our understanding of the Moro kris and its origins. I think F. de Luzon is saying that he can find no clear evidence, to his satisfaction, that the Javanese keris begat the Moro kris. Like so much history of ethnographic weapons, this transition was not documented at the time and we are left to surmise the facts. Certainly, we can find older Moro kris that look more like Indonesian keris, and the keris clearly predated the kris, but that's about as far as the evidence takes us.

The back migration of the Moro kris to the "Malay sundang" is an interesting concept, and I'm struggling to think of another similar example in the area of edged weapons. The observation that Moro kris appear to have been imported into Malaysia for the manufacture of recent Malay sundang seems plausible, but I'm not sure to what purpose that would have occurred other than to market these for tourists and collectors.

Perhaps this topic has run its course for now.

Ian.

I agree. My apologies for "hijacking" your thread. My intention was to deepen the discussion. Thank you.

[Ian]

F de Luzon, no problem. I think we have had a useful and lively discussion on this topic. Appreciate your thoughts.

Ian.

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

I agree. My apologies for "hijacking" your thread. My intention was to deepen the discussion. Thank you.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

"The Sundang is fairly well accepted as developing from some form of Indonesian keris."

This point has not been proven at all and is not even discussed in any literature on the keris. I don't think Cato even discussed it in his work on Moro swords."

Mr. de Luzon, your statement that the sundang is not proven to have developed from the Indonesian keris may be technically correct, but your statement does not reflect the consensus of opinion in this matter. As with many, if not most matters of a historic nature, absolute proof of origin of the weapon form that we now refer to as "keris" is probably impossible to present, however, a careful review of the available evidence of keris origin will demonstrate that the current consensus of opinion is very difficult to refute.

The weapon from which all keris have developed first appeared in Central Jawa during the Early Classical Period. All other types of keris developed from this first form, known today by scholars of the keris as the "Keris Buda".

The keris spread from Jawa through trade and gifting to other places throughout Maritime South East Asia. This spread probably began during the Majapahit era and continued during the Mataram era, indeed, by some measures, it could be considered to have continued up until the present day.

The sundang is a unique derivation of the original keris, this is certain, but it did come from the same root as all other keris.

Perhaps a little more generalised reading of the literature that deals with Javanese keris, and of the history of Jawa, most especially Javanese trade links, may be of value.

Point well taken, Mr. Maisey. And I shall do that.