The half moon symbol in early Spanish swords

[Jim McDougall]

Well Fernando, for not being a fan of esotericism.......on the solution for the crowned '3' (as I was seeing it) actually being a calligraphically embellished 'Z' ( as Sir James Mann had specified, 1962)........as they would say here in Texas....'ya done good!!!

The 'Z' as a toponymic for Zaragossa, as noted a key location for these masters outside of Toledo seems very well placed.


With the fluer de lis, it seems that was mentioned in discussion on Juan Martinez as being one of the multiple devices on his blades, along with half moon and crowned T (from Valle and Marek). I believe it was Marek who regarded the fluer de lis as associated with Espadero del Rey as it was of course the roya symbol of the Bourbon family.


Jasper,
Thank you for the scans of the detail on Clemens Stam and the marks used by them in Toledo.
The one (I think it is for Stam) which is a kind of grated image......would that be a portcullis?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...calligraphically embellished 'Z' ( as Sir James Mann had specified, 1962)...

Is that so, Jim ... in what page ?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Is that so, Jim ... in what page ?

Well Fernando, I guess that comment was not entirely correct, as I was so preoccupied with congratulating your well placed and reasonably deduced 'approach' on the embellished 'Z' that I inadvertently linked Sir James Mann's mention of the 'figure' (not 'number') 3 and the letter 'Z'.
As always, I am so grateful for your gentle and courteous edification and catching my misteakes and reinforcing the integrity of the entries by doing so.

Actually, I had not added the page number as I was not quoting and thought I had added that page in earlier comments. In reviewing the pages from Sir James Mann ("Wallace Collection: European Arms & Armour" Vol. II, pp.281, referring to a rapier (A549) and the mark in discussion , "....the mark bears no resemblance to that ( the LETTER Z CROWNED of that of A611) generally attributed to Sebastian Hernandez the elder, who was still living in 1637".

Moving to A611 (Mann, op cit. p.309), Mann describes a rapier of c. 1580-1600, he notes, "....the ricasso stamped on one side with the FIGURE THREE crowned and surmounted by a cross".

Clearly even Sir James Mann, an arms researcher of most distinguished repute, had made misteakes.

Thank you for pointing out my error, and the opportunity to look further into the references from Sir James Mann which were importantly contradictory.

[fernando]

Jim, the only misteake you may have made was that of not passing me the:


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, the only misteake you may have made was that of not passing me the:


.

LOL!!! Indeed, and you have undoubtedly not forgotten my unfortunate celebration with a little too much 'Metallica' and Drambuie, when a tulwar called to me for a little swing........ and I, forgetting the ceiling fan swirling above me....had a great surprise!