Pala - antique or repro?!

Kubur · 7th March 2017, 09:02 AM

[QUOTE=That said, the wiggle engraving on the mounts is probably later. It's likely they were plain silver originally.
[/QUOTE]

I don't think Oliver, the wiggle engravings are the same on scabbard and guard. This sword is perfectly coherent to me.

David R · 7th March 2017, 09:21 AM

If it is a repro' it's a very good one, more of a "new made in the tradition" rather than a fake. Also more likely Syria or India than China.
Myself, without having it in hand I would guess late 19th early 20th century "Ottoman Revival", or a dress sword, a nice piece and well worth having.

mariusgmioc · 7th March 2017, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

If it is a repro' it's a very good one, more of a "new made in the tradition" rather than a fake. Also more likely Syria or India than China.
Myself, without having it in hand I would guess late 19th early 20th century "Ottoman Revival", or a dress sword, a nice piece and well worth having.

Hi David and thank you for you comment!

The "made in China" issue was more like joke, and I concur with Oliver's opinion and yours, that it is a late 19th century Ottoman and I believe even Turkish sword.

Regards,

Marius

motan · 9th March 2017, 06:59 AM

Hi, I am certainly not an expert on any sword, but the style of decoration on the guard and sheath look Syrian to me. Kilij-type swords were made in Damascus well into the 20th century and were popular mainly with Bedu tribesmen. So this could be one of these. I don't know about the blade. It could be re-hafted and re-decorated older blade. The use of cow-horn in the grip is also consistent with late Syrian origin.

mariusgmioc · 9th March 2017, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Hi, I am certainly not an expert on any sword, but the style of decoration on the guard and sheath look Syrian to me. Kilij-type swords were made in Damascus well into the 20th century and were popular mainly with Bedu tribesmen. So this could be one of these. I don't know about the blade. It could be re-hafted and re-decorated older blade. The use of cow-horn in the grip is also consistent with late Syrian origin.

Interesting point!

However, I do not think the scales are cow horm but rhinoceros. However, I am not certain , but under magnification, the horn appears to be made of many hairs joined together which is exactly how rhinoceros horn looks like.

motan · 9th March 2017, 11:19 AM

Just to illustrate my point. The first one is from 1900-1920. Look at the sword below. The second one is from the well-known Aref el Aref series from the 1930'. There are several types visible. The Bedu used every type availble, the most popular were kilij type hilt and calssical Syrian type with jus over 90 degrees bent pommel tip. Shashka type, Arabian saif/nimsha type and locally made "sinai" type were also common. Blades were whatever was available for re-hafting. It is no real evidence, but the kilij type was popular and I guess Damascus sword smiths kept making them. All said, this is not a typical Bedouin sword because the blade and blade decoration are real kilij.

Kubur · 9th March 2017, 12:50 PM

The pala presented by Marius is Turkish, or at least from the Balkans.
Your photos are very nice btw.

mariusgmioc · 9th March 2017, 12:52 PM

@ Motan

Very interesting indeed!

Thank you very much!

However, I believe the sheath with the silver thread joining of the leather on the front face of the scabbard is rather typical Turkish.

I am surprised to notice they wore their swords edge up.

@ Kubur,

I agree. I would have said Turkish but in the Balkans the styles were so much intertwined that it would be close to impossible to certainly allocate a precise geographical location.
Besides, there were many Turkish smiths who travelled with the Turkish army and then setled in the Balkans.

9th March 2017, 06:59 AM	#4
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Damascus?? Hi, I am certainly not an expert on any sword, but the style of decoration on the guard and sheath look Syrian to me. Kilij-type swords were made in Damascus well into the 20th century and were popular mainly with Bedu tribesmen. So this could be one of these. I don't know about the blade. It could be re-hafted and re-decorated older blade. The use of cow-horn in the grip is also consistent with late Syrian origin.

9th March 2017, 11:19 AM	#6
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Pictures Just to illustrate my point. The first one is from 1900-1920. Look at the sword below. The second one is from the well-known Aref el Aref series from the 1930'. There are several types visible. The Bedu used every type availble, the most popular were kilij type hilt and calssical Syrian type with jus over 90 degrees bent pommel tip. Shashka type, Arabian saif/nimsha type and locally made "sinai" type were also common. Blades were whatever was available for re-hafting. It is no real evidence, but the kilij type was popular and I guess Damascus sword smiths kept making them. All said, this is not a typical Bedouin sword because the blade and blade decoration are real kilij. Attached Images

9th March 2017, 12:50 PM	#7
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	The pala presented by Marius is Turkish, or at least from the Balkans. Your photos are very nice btw. Attached Images

7th March 2017, 09:02 AM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	[QUOTE=That said, the wiggle engraving on the mounts is probably later. It's likely they were plain silver originally. [/QUOTE] I don't think Oliver, the wiggle engravings are the same on scabbard and guard. This sword is perfectly coherent to me.

7th March 2017, 09:21 AM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,120	If it is a repro' it's a very good one, more of a "new made in the tradition" rather than a fake. Also more likely Syria or India than China. Myself, without having it in hand I would guess late 19th early 20th century "Ottoman Revival", or a dress sword, a nice piece and well worth having.

9th March 2017, 12:52 PM	#8
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	@ Motan Very interesting indeed! Thank you very much! However, I believe the sheath with the silver thread joining of the leather on the front face of the scabbard is rather typical Turkish. I am surprised to notice they wore their swords edge up. @ Kubur, I agree. I would have said Turkish but in the Balkans the styles were so much intertwined that it would be close to impossible to certainly allocate a precise geographical location. Besides, there were many Turkish smiths who travelled with the Turkish army and then setled in the Balkans.