Sboula for Comments

Kubur · 5th March 2017, 08:44 AM

Hi Teodor,

About the origin of your sboula, to me, this kind is from Tunisia/Libya. There is absolutly no link with the Beja or even Zanzibar, it's pure nonsense.
Look at the Tunisian swords already discussed.
Your model has a scabbard very Algerian/fyssa to me, it's interesting but not surprising between berber populations.

The cousin of the sboula is the Genoui in Morocco, another cousin is the Shula. All of them are stabbing weapons.

The blade appears to have been made from that of European military swords. Yes or Bayonet sometimes.

It has typical markings, obviously are an illiterate copy. This appears to be another trace of European influence. Yes - made on late 19th c. blades to imitate old and prestigious models.

I think the purpose of these daggers is so simple and basic they are probably
pre 15-16th centuries but the introduction of the Bayonet with the French army has probably accelerated the process...

Best,
Kubur

kronckew · 5th March 2017, 09:09 AM

look a lot like a basilard or degen

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th March 2017, 01:57 PM

It is a very interesting discussion since it reflects what happens when a fact is placed in a publication in this case "Book of the Sword" by Burton where the S'boula appears as a ZANZIBARI WEAPON spuriously as it turned out along with two other weapons equally wrongly placed on the same page...What Burton probably would have preferred to write was that weapons from other trading regions often appeared on the Zanzibar streets like this S'boula from North African shores...with traders from Morocco etc.

In fact it took decades before this myth was disproven and largely, I understand, owing to work from this Forum where the right attribution was noted.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2017, 01:32 AM

Thank you very much for the notation Teodor, it was kind of you to recall that research which took place from about 1998 until I wrote the paper on the 'Zanzibar Swords' in 2004.
This example is as you note a bit different in the wood hilt, but as you have also well noted, these 'H' style hilts are compellingly like European baselards in many cases. It has never been distinctly connected to this European form, but these 's'boula', which are distinctly from the Maghrebi regions, could certainly have been influenced by examples of these. The influence of European edged weapons is virtually indisputable in many cases of North African arms.

As Ibrahiim has kindly noted, the attribution of these was brought out in 2004 when I prepared research and a paper on the so called "Zanzibar sword' which had been so designated in "Book of the Sword" (Burton, 1885).
Actually my 'discovery' I soon after realized had been addressed in the "Catalogue de la Collection d' Armes Anciennes" (Charles Buttin, 1933).

In this reference, the author noted that Richard Burton had apparently picked up the 'Zanzibar' attribution from the work of Auguste Demmin (1877) and that these swords in this exact shape were actually Moroccan s'boula. I confirmed this by obtaining a copy of the Demmin work, which had the exact line drawings and classifications used by Burton. I further confirmed this when I handled personally the original manuscripts of the Burton book at the Huntington Museum in California.

Further confirmation was in the copy of "Les Poignards et les Sabres Morocains" by Charles Buttin, Hesperis, Tome XXVI, 1939. 1, given to me by his great grandson Dominique Buttin.
These references were published posthumously for Charles by his son Francois, and as Dominique explained Charles had lived in Morocco for many years, so knew these Maghrebi weapons quite well.

The Zanzibar presence of these distinct swords derives from their being brought via trade networks across the Sahara, into Ethiopian regions (where examples are recorded with Amharic inscriptions, see Lindert, 1967) and certainly where they may have been acquired by Beja tribesmen (there are many Beja in Ethiopian and Eritrean areas) . In these entrepots they were exchanged in trade situations with the caravans to and from Zanzibar.
I do not think these hilts however are related to the well known dagger hilts on Hadendoa and other Beja examples.

In these trans Saharan trade networks, the influences of various Berber tribes were of course diffused into the groupings of weapons being carried with the caravans......which may account for the flyssa like needle point.

Actually these needle like points are quite common on these, and many are repurposed bayonet blades, many French as would be expected in French West African and Sahelian areas.
The curious lettering on this blade suggests distinct European influence in many blades which had inscriptions cryptically placed, usually acrostics for various invocations, mottos etc. While it may have been copied by a native artisan is hard to say, as European examples are often as disconnected linguistically or semantically as these inscriptions were often meant to be 'coded'.

The single example I had of one of these was with the brass repousse covering wood on the hilt and the blade was the needle point.

TVV · 6th March 2017, 06:13 PM

Thank you for the comments gentlemen.

Kubur, I personally believed the sboulas to be from Morocco, based on a couple of things:
1. The ones in Tirri's book show Moroccan decorative motives.
2. The only picture of a native wearing one shows him with an afedali musket from the Sous valley.

I am not opposed to Tunis/Libya attribution, but I just want to know what it is based on. I do agree that on one of my sboulas the scabbard does indeed look similar in construction to flyssa scabbards.

Sincerely,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 9th March 2017, 02:52 AM

These s'boula are Moroccan, but I will note here that there was confusion on them as early as 1870s.

Using the flyssa reference previously noted in this discussion:

Stone (1934,p.234, fig.291) describes the flyssa as "the national sword of the Kabyles of Morocco".
This venerable reference is of course, incorrect in the sense we now are aware of the history of these unique edged weapons.

We may consider that this misattribution may be explained as follows:
The Kabyles, of the Berber tribal confederations (Ar. gabail= the tribes) are typically most well known as of the Djurdjura range of the Little Atlas mountains in Algeria.
They are best known for the unique 'flyssa' sword, which takes its name from the Iflyssen tribal group who are said to have initiated this form.
The Kabyles Berbers seem to follow the Sunni Malakite Rite, whose aparant center was situated in Morocco.

Tenuously, this Moroccan connection to the Kabyles groups, as noted usually associated with Algeria, may have accounted for the Stone attribution to Morocco.

The point is that there were clearly connections tribally between Morocco and Algeria via the Kabyle and more broadly Berber contexts.
The diffusion of these similarities between the s'boula and flyssa seems to be understandable in these considerations.

As for the correct attribution of the s'boula to Morocco as its original region of development, as I have emphasized previously, these very same hilted and bladed forms are shown in "Catalogue de la Collection d'Armes Anciennes" , Charles Buttin (Rumilly, 1933) in fig, 1032 and 1033, both termed 'poignard des Berberes du Maroc', plate XXXI.
As described in my research through 1990s, paper 2004, and discussions since then, Buttin notes (p.270) the error of A,Demmin (1877) attributing these to Zanzibar, and the subsequent carrying of that forward by Richard Burton (1885).

These attributions led to the perceptions of arms writers that these were from Zanzibar, and the term 'Zanzibar swords'. It has been found however that these same hilted and bladed weapons did occur in degree in Ethiopia (Lindert, 1967) with a number of examples inscribed in Ge'ez (Amharic).
It does seem that these very same swords likely did gain travel to Zanzibar with Omani traders who networked through the African interior and did interact with traders from these Ethiopian entrepots.

Therefore, the misattribution by Stone, the similarity of some features of s'boula to flyssa, and the misattribution by Demmin and Burton to Zanzibar have all been actually somewhat explained.

As for Tunisian or Libyan attribution for the s'boula, it is possible that some of these might have ended up in their sphere....but only incidentally from interaction via trade networks eastward from Morocco. I have not found any evidence for these being indigenous for either of these regions in the many years I have researched them.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th March 2017, 03:45 PM

The written word can be a very dangerous thing. More so when a fact is put down on paper in a respected publication and allowed to become fact for generations...Perpetration of errors in print, however, are no reason to reel off these, at times, blistering errors as facts in our era; where fortunately here at Forum the case for the incorrect detail on S'boula has been dead and buried many times over and now at last finally it can vanish in the mist of time ...finally...I hope other researchers can show further examples of these often repeated mistakes so we can rid history of these errors..something a book cannot do but for which we can be instrumental in correcting.

Kubur · 9th March 2017, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Thank you for the comments gentlemen.

Kubur, I personally believed the sboulas to be from Morocco, based on a couple of things:
1. The ones in Tirri's book show Moroccan decorative motives.
2. The only picture of a native wearing one shows him with an afedali musket from the Sous valley.
Sincerely,
Teodor

Jim, Teodor, I checked in my books and you are right: Morroco.
Buttin called them sboula or sekkin, he admited that this kind of daggers has some Moroccan characteristics... As Arial said Berbers spread from Tunisia to Mali.

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2017, 02:29 AM

Thank you Kubur, and you are right, Buttin did indeed describe ornamentation etc. as distinctly Moroccan and would have been most familiar with the weapons of Morocco. As I was told by his great grandson Dominique, he lived much of his life in Morocco so was keenly aware of their arms.
Teodor, good points on the bayonet potential for these weapons as being somewhat questionable, and I admit from my own standpoint, it was more of a notion given the extremely thin, needle point nature of a number of these (case in point Buttin, #1033). This example is specifically termed 'sekkin' as opposed to s'boula, and perhaps this, 'extremely long poniard' was identified as such by that term.
I had thought this looked remarkably like either the M1874 Epee Gras or the M1886 Lebel bayonets.
Again, another free association assumption.

Ariel, good notes on the Berbers, and I recall years ago (actually I think in this particular research) reading the anthropological study on Moroccan Berber ancestry "Tribes of the Rif" (Carleton S. Coon, 1932) where they emphatically declared they were 'Caucasian' or 'white' and not negroid.

To try to estimate types of weapons by classifying them as 'Berber' would be as useless as trying to classify a weapon as 'Byzantine' . It does seem that such broad classification has transcended these kinds of vague terming in the case of 'Ottoman' in perhaps too many cases, but accompanying qualification seems to usually rectify these.

6th March 2017, 01:32 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Thank you very much for the notation Teodor, it was kind of you to recall that research which took place from about 1998 until I wrote the paper on the 'Zanzibar Swords' in 2004. This example is as you note a bit different in the wood hilt, but as you have also well noted, these 'H' style hilts are compellingly like European baselards in many cases. It has never been distinctly connected to this European form, but these 's'boula', which are distinctly from the Maghrebi regions, could certainly have been influenced by examples of these. The influence of European edged weapons is virtually indisputable in many cases of North African arms. As Ibrahiim has kindly noted, the attribution of these was brought out in 2004 when I prepared research and a paper on the so called "Zanzibar sword' which had been so designated in "Book of the Sword" (Burton, 1885). Actually my 'discovery' I soon after realized had been addressed in the "Catalogue de la Collection d' Armes Anciennes" (Charles Buttin, 1933). In this reference, the author noted that Richard Burton had apparently picked up the 'Zanzibar' attribution from the work of Auguste Demmin (1877) and that these swords in this exact shape were actually Moroccan s'boula. I confirmed this by obtaining a copy of the Demmin work, which had the exact line drawings and classifications used by Burton. I further confirmed this when I handled personally the original manuscripts of the Burton book at the Huntington Museum in California. Further confirmation was in the copy of "Les Poignards et les Sabres Morocains" by Charles Buttin, Hesperis, Tome XXVI, 1939. 1, given to me by his great grandson Dominique Buttin. These references were published posthumously for Charles by his son Francois, and as Dominique explained Charles had lived in Morocco for many years, so knew these Maghrebi weapons quite well. The Zanzibar presence of these distinct swords derives from their being brought via trade networks across the Sahara, into Ethiopian regions (where examples are recorded with Amharic inscriptions, see Lindert, 1967) and certainly where they may have been acquired by Beja tribesmen (there are many Beja in Ethiopian and Eritrean areas) . In these entrepots they were exchanged in trade situations with the caravans to and from Zanzibar. I do not think these hilts however are related to the well known dagger hilts on Hadendoa and other Beja examples. In these trans Saharan trade networks, the influences of various Berber tribes were of course diffused into the groupings of weapons being carried with the caravans......which may account for the flyssa like needle point. Actually these needle like points are quite common on these, and many are repurposed bayonet blades, many French as would be expected in French West African and Sahelian areas. The curious lettering on this blade suggests distinct European influence in many blades which had inscriptions cryptically placed, usually acrostics for various invocations, mottos etc. While it may have been copied by a native artisan is hard to say, as European examples are often as disconnected linguistically or semantically as these inscriptions were often meant to be 'coded'. The single example I had of one of these was with the brass repousse covering wood on the hilt and the blade was the needle point. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th March 2017 at 05:04 AM.

6th March 2017, 06:13 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Thank you for the comments gentlemen. Kubur, I personally believed the sboulas to be from Morocco, based on a couple of things: 1. The ones in Tirri's book show Moroccan decorative motives. 2. The only picture of a native wearing one shows him with an afedali musket from the Sous valley. I am not opposed to Tunis/Libya attribution, but I just want to know what it is based on. I do agree that on one of my sboulas the scabbard does indeed look similar in construction to flyssa scabbards. Sincerely, Teodor Attached Images

9th March 2017, 03:45 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	THE MOROCCAN S'BOULA. The written word can be a very dangerous thing. More so when a fact is put down on paper in a respected publication and allowed to become fact for generations...Perpetration of errors in print, however, are no reason to reel off these, at times, blistering errors as facts in our era; where fortunately here at Forum the case for the incorrect detail on S'boula has been dead and buried many times over and now at last finally it can vanish in the mist of time ...finally...I hope other researchers can show further examples of these often repeated mistakes so we can rid history of these errors..something a book cannot do but for which we can be instrumental in correcting.

5th March 2017, 08:44 AM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Teodor, About the origin of your sboula, to me, this kind is from Tunisia/Libya. There is absolutly no link with the Beja or even Zanzibar, it's pure nonsense. Look at the Tunisian swords already discussed. Your model has a scabbard very Algerian/fyssa to me, it's interesting but not surprising between berber populations. The cousin of the sboula is the Genoui in Morocco, another cousin is the Shula. All of them are stabbing weapons. The blade appears to have been made from that of European military swords. Yes or Bayonet sometimes. It has typical markings, obviously are an illiterate copy. This appears to be another trace of European influence. Yes - made on late 19th c. blades to imitate old and prestigious models. I think the purpose of these daggers is so simple and basic they are probably pre 15-16th centuries but the introduction of the Bayonet with the French army has probably accelerated the process... Best, Kubur

5th March 2017, 09:09 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	look a lot like a basilard or degen

5th March 2017, 01:57 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	It is a very interesting discussion since it reflects what happens when a fact is placed in a publication in this case "Book of the Sword" by Burton where the S'boula appears as a ZANZIBARI WEAPON spuriously as it turned out along with two other weapons equally wrongly placed on the same page...What Burton probably would have preferred to write was that weapons from other trading regions often appeared on the Zanzibar streets like this S'boula from North African shores...with traders from Morocco etc. In fact it took decades before this myth was disproven and largely, I understand, owing to work from this Forum where the right attribution was noted. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

9th March 2017, 02:52 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	These s'boula are Moroccan, but I will note here that there was confusion on them as early as 1870s. Using the flyssa reference previously noted in this discussion: Stone (1934,p.234, fig.291) describes the flyssa as "the national sword of the Kabyles of Morocco". This venerable reference is of course, incorrect in the sense we now are aware of the history of these unique edged weapons. We may consider that this misattribution may be explained as follows: The Kabyles, of the Berber tribal confederations (Ar. gabail= the tribes) are typically most well known as of the Djurdjura range of the Little Atlas mountains in Algeria. They are best known for the unique 'flyssa' sword, which takes its name from the Iflyssen tribal group who are said to have initiated this form. The Kabyles Berbers seem to follow the Sunni Malakite Rite, whose aparant center was situated in Morocco. Tenuously, this Moroccan connection to the Kabyles groups, as noted usually associated with Algeria, may have accounted for the Stone attribution to Morocco. The point is that there were clearly connections tribally between Morocco and Algeria via the Kabyle and more broadly Berber contexts. The diffusion of these similarities between the s'boula and flyssa seems to be understandable in these considerations. As for the correct attribution of the s'boula to Morocco as its original region of development, as I have emphasized previously, these very same hilted and bladed forms are shown in "Catalogue de la Collection d'Armes Anciennes" , Charles Buttin (Rumilly, 1933) in fig, 1032 and 1033, both termed 'poignard des Berberes du Maroc', plate XXXI. As described in my research through 1990s, paper 2004, and discussions since then, Buttin notes (p.270) the error of A,Demmin (1877) attributing these to Zanzibar, and the subsequent carrying of that forward by Richard Burton (1885). These attributions led to the perceptions of arms writers that these were from Zanzibar, and the term 'Zanzibar swords'. It has been found however that these same hilted and bladed weapons did occur in degree in Ethiopia (Lindert, 1967) with a number of examples inscribed in Ge'ez (Amharic). It does seem that these very same swords likely did gain travel to Zanzibar with Omani traders who networked through the African interior and did interact with traders from these Ethiopian entrepots. Therefore, the misattribution by Stone, the similarity of some features of s'boula to flyssa, and the misattribution by Demmin and Burton to Zanzibar have all been actually somewhat explained. As for Tunisian or Libyan attribution for the s'boula, it is possible that some of these might have ended up in their sphere....but only incidentally from interaction via trade networks eastward from Morocco. I have not found any evidence for these being indigenous for either of these regions in the many years I have researched them.

10th March 2017, 02:29 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Thank you Kubur, and you are right, Buttin did indeed describe ornamentation etc. as distinctly Moroccan and would have been most familiar with the weapons of Morocco. As I was told by his great grandson Dominique, he lived much of his life in Morocco so was keenly aware of their arms. Teodor, good points on the bayonet potential for these weapons as being somewhat questionable, and I admit from my own standpoint, it was more of a notion given the extremely thin, needle point nature of a number of these (case in point Buttin, #1033). This example is specifically termed 'sekkin' as opposed to s'boula, and perhaps this, 'extremely long poniard' was identified as such by that term. I had thought this looked remarkably like either the M1874 Epee Gras or the M1886 Lebel bayonets. Again, another free association assumption. Ariel, good notes on the Berbers, and I recall years ago (actually I think in this particular research) reading the anthropological study on Moroccan Berber ancestry "Tribes of the Rif" (Carleton S. Coon, 1932) where they emphatically declared they were 'Caucasian' or 'white' and not negroid. To try to estimate types of weapons by classifying them as 'Berber' would be as useless as trying to classify a weapon as 'Byzantine' . It does seem that such broad classification has transcended these kinds of vague terming in the case of 'Ottoman' in perhaps too many cases, but accompanying qualification seems to usually rectify these.