Middle eastern musket ID help

BlacksmithingWitch · 27th February 2017, 03:13 AM

Long awaited pictures, and in reply to the statement about the lock lifting out, you were correct! it popped out. I cleaned it only slightly with a bit of 0000 steel wool, wiped wet, and then a wipe of oil, and im amazed at the beauty of this old rifle after just simply wiping way the surface rust and the crud that had accumulated over the very deep patina. the stock got a similar treatment with superfine sanding of the outer layer of dirt, and a good wipedown with oil. Its amazing seeing the dark patterns of use where the hands and cheek rested. There arent any screws on the left of the stock, however there is a roughly triangular lobed piece of metal recessed into the piece that serves as something solid for the bolt securing the lock to screw into. After it fell out while removing the lock, and knocking off a bit of dried something-or-other, there was a small hallmark of a crown with a W beneath it on that small metal piece.

And now for the big event, some photos of various items. If all goes in order, the following show: the butt plate top. The plate itself is simple metal held by small nails around the perimeter of the butt of the stock, this piece folded over the top is the decorated bit.
Next is the trigger guard decorations. If it helps to ID the gun, the guard removes by removing a screw in front of the trigger and the back of the guard swings out of a slot once the front is free.
Next is a decoration on the grip area of the stock behind where the barrel screws on.
Following that is a view of the breach area itself,
and finally there is an up close view of the metal sheath tht covers the front end of the stock and helps hold the ramrod in place

BlacksmithingWitch · 27th February 2017, 03:23 AM

here are some more pictures, this time of barrel markings. The first two are on the underside approximately 2 and 8 inches from the breech end of the barrel respectively. the third one is right at the breach on the underside, the next one is right on the back of the breech plug. theres also a small mark of a letter, maybe an E, in a circle on the left side opposite of the nipple, and a small hallmark inside the lock of an F under a crown.

BlacksmithingWitch · 1st March 2017, 01:24 AM

another update as I wait for thoughts on this, I was cleaning and oiling the barrel bore as i didnt like the look of the rust forming inside, and as I was cleaning down near the breach, there came a rattling noise and out plonked a few dozen roughly hexagonal lead bits, packed in a honeycomb form 3 layers thick, that had at one point been wrapped in greased paper. There strangely enough didnt seem to be any powder behind the projectile however, thankful for that as i dont want anything corrossive down where it cant be kept stable. overall the barrel seems to be in ok shape albeit a bit dull inside, i plan to take it to a gunsmith soon to get the twice-over and their opinion on the origin as well.

rickystl · 4th March 2017, 04:58 PM

Hi Blacksmith.
Thanks for all the additional photos. Don't know where to start. LOL Here are some additional observations:
LOCK: The lock, trigger, trigger guard, rear sight, and rear sling swival all appear to be from the French musket posted above. The trigger guard just engraved to suit local tastes. The lock even uses European pan head screws.
STOCK: That decorative wrist plate looks very similar to ones you see on Ottoman/Balkan style horse pistols, just larger. That long, brass muzzle cap is also something more likely to appear on Ottoman/Balkan style guns. Again, to suit local tastes. The brass butt plate being a locally made item.
BARREL: I believe this barrel started life as a European made item for use with a flintlock. The barrel being recycled with a locally made percussion bolster added. You can see the weld thread. The engraved brass overlays being added to the barrel, again for local tastes. The breech plug and breech look robust, and of European manufacture. I'm not sure about the barrel marks. The E with a circle around it may be a Belgium proof mark (?) It might be worth posting the barrel mark photos on the European Forum to see if anyone can identify them.
Overall, it is a very neat and interesting gun. Nice find.

SHOOTING THE GUN: If you decide you would like to shoot the gun, I would recommend you have the barrel inspected by an experienced muzzle loading, black powder (not modern) gunsmith for his opinion. I would have him remove the breech plug and check for plug to breech thread integrity. While the plug is out you can do a good cleaning and inspect the breech. As long as there is no deep pitting, the barrel (since it's smoothbore) can be burnished out smooth again. Also, get his opinion of the percussion bolster strength and the threads for the nipple. You will probably need a new musket size nipple. If the bolster threads for the nipple appear too worn or loose, the gunsmith can insert a new heli coil.

Rick

BlacksmithingWitch · 5th March 2017, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Blacksmith.

BARREL: I believe this barrel started life as a European made item for use with a flintlock. The barrel being recycled with a locally made percussion bolster added. You can see the weld thread.

Rick

With respect, im not sure i agree. The barrel profile seems to match that of the french musket pictured earlier too closely, and Im not sure what you mean by weld lines on the bolster. There is a very shallow rifling in the barrel upon cleaning, not super deep but enough of a twist that it cant be considered a random scratch pattern inside. If the lock, trigger guard and strap hardware are from a french musket and the barrel of that musket resembles mine in available calibers, shape and details such as the size of the "tang" that secures the breech to the stock, as well as the size and shape of the percussion bolster, then im more inclined to believe that the barrel too is of one such french gun that had been put into a new stock and decorated with gold and carving as per some owner's taste. I am suspecting heavily ottoman/balkan inspired origins, partially from the gold, partially from the rosette decoration on the stock and a smaller spiral rosette on the breach tang, and also for the fact that there was a charge of what I found out to be cut lead inside the barrel, oddly without powder (thankfully) and that sort of ammo was often used in ottoman areas in a bind. The butt plate, muzzle shield and other stock accents are all steel or iron, btw, although I do suppose one could confuse them for brass because they arent very clean in the photos and there was a rather impressive film of gunky oil on top of them making them appear yellow. And on the subject of metal, the inlays on the barrel seem to be gold, as theyre too soft and nonreactive to be brass. they werent tarnished the day i got it, albiet covered in gunk, and even after cleaning where one would see brass objects at the least start to take on a slightly deeper or darker appearance, it remains shiny. I even wiped a q-tip of strong vinegar on an unoiled section of decoration to be certain, and this is the solution i use to deliberately patinate brass. still nothing. So by my count that rules out most things except gold as being able to fit the bill. (plus it is VERY soft)

Thanks for your opinions on this piece im still trying to get to the bottom of it as its been very puzzling to me. I appreciate your theories

kahnjar1 · 5th March 2017, 07:11 AM

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html
Refer here. The barrel Proof Marks are Belgian so at least you now know where (at least) the barrel was made. See #2 and 3 above for the ELG mark.
Stu

BlacksmithingWitch · 5th March 2017, 08:55 AM

so Belgian seems like a given, could the lock be as well and based of of french counterparts? as it does seem a dead ringer for the sort of lock on the french musket posted above. Oddly enough, the lock has a proof mark with an F and crown, the plate opposite the lock for the bolt to anchor into has one with a crown and a very obvious W. I know virtually nothing as to the anthropology of firearms but could that indicate its two different guns brought together in a new stock? As far as the date, could the CH 43 on the breech plug be referring to 1843? Im sorry for all the questions im just a bit out of my familiar zone and trying to get to the bottom of this interesting piece.

27th February 2017, 03:13 AM	#1
BlacksmithingWitch Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 13	Long awaited pictures, and in reply to the statement about the lock lifting out, you were correct! it popped out. I cleaned it only slightly with a bit of 0000 steel wool, wiped wet, and then a wipe of oil, and im amazed at the beauty of this old rifle after just simply wiping way the surface rust and the crud that had accumulated over the very deep patina. the stock got a similar treatment with superfine sanding of the outer layer of dirt, and a good wipedown with oil. Its amazing seeing the dark patterns of use where the hands and cheek rested. There arent any screws on the left of the stock, however there is a roughly triangular lobed piece of metal recessed into the piece that serves as something solid for the bolt securing the lock to screw into. After it fell out while removing the lock, and knocking off a bit of dried something-or-other, there was a small hallmark of a crown with a W beneath it on that small metal piece. And now for the big event, some photos of various items. If all goes in order, the following show: the butt plate top. The plate itself is simple metal held by small nails around the perimeter of the butt of the stock, this piece folded over the top is the decorated bit. Next is the trigger guard decorations. If it helps to ID the gun, the guard removes by removing a screw in front of the trigger and the back of the guard swings out of a slot once the front is free. Next is a decoration on the grip area of the stock behind where the barrel screws on. Following that is a view of the breach area itself, and finally there is an up close view of the metal sheath tht covers the front end of the stock and helps hold the ramrod in place Attached Images

5th March 2017, 07:11 AM	#6
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Barrel Marks http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html Refer here. The barrel Proof Marks are Belgian so at least you now know where (at least) the barrel was made. See #2 and 3 above for the ELG mark. Stu

27th February 2017, 03:23 AM	#2
BlacksmithingWitch Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 13	here are some more pictures, this time of barrel markings. The first two are on the underside approximately 2 and 8 inches from the breech end of the barrel respectively. the third one is right at the breach on the underside, the next one is right on the back of the breech plug. theres also a small mark of a letter, maybe an E, in a circle on the left side opposite of the nipple, and a small hallmark inside the lock of an F under a crown. Attached Images

1st March 2017, 01:24 AM	#3
BlacksmithingWitch Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 13	another update as I wait for thoughts on this, I was cleaning and oiling the barrel bore as i didnt like the look of the rust forming inside, and as I was cleaning down near the breach, there came a rattling noise and out plonked a few dozen roughly hexagonal lead bits, packed in a honeycomb form 3 layers thick, that had at one point been wrapped in greased paper. There strangely enough didnt seem to be any powder behind the projectile however, thankful for that as i dont want anything corrossive down where it cant be kept stable. overall the barrel seems to be in ok shape albeit a bit dull inside, i plan to take it to a gunsmith soon to get the twice-over and their opinion on the origin as well.

4th March 2017, 04:58 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,629	Hi Blacksmith. Thanks for all the additional photos. Don't know where to start. LOL Here are some additional observations: LOCK: The lock, trigger, trigger guard, rear sight, and rear sling swival all appear to be from the French musket posted above. The trigger guard just engraved to suit local tastes. The lock even uses European pan head screws. STOCK: That decorative wrist plate looks very similar to ones you see on Ottoman/Balkan style horse pistols, just larger. That long, brass muzzle cap is also something more likely to appear on Ottoman/Balkan style guns. Again, to suit local tastes. The brass butt plate being a locally made item. BARREL: I believe this barrel started life as a European made item for use with a flintlock. The barrel being recycled with a locally made percussion bolster added. You can see the weld thread. The engraved brass overlays being added to the barrel, again for local tastes. The breech plug and breech look robust, and of European manufacture. I'm not sure about the barrel marks. The E with a circle around it may be a Belgium proof mark (?) It might be worth posting the barrel mark photos on the European Forum to see if anyone can identify them. Overall, it is a very neat and interesting gun. Nice find. SHOOTING THE GUN: If you decide you would like to shoot the gun, I would recommend you have the barrel inspected by an experienced muzzle loading, black powder (not modern) gunsmith for his opinion. I would have him remove the breech plug and check for plug to breech thread integrity. While the plug is out you can do a good cleaning and inspect the breech. As long as there is no deep pitting, the barrel (since it's smoothbore) can be burnished out smooth again. Also, get his opinion of the percussion bolster strength and the threads for the nipple. You will probably need a new musket size nipple. If the bolster threads for the nipple appear too worn or loose, the gunsmith can insert a new heli coil. Rick

5th March 2017, 08:55 AM	#7
BlacksmithingWitch Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 13	so Belgian seems like a given, could the lock be as well and based of of french counterparts? as it does seem a dead ringer for the sort of lock on the french musket posted above. Oddly enough, the lock has a proof mark with an F and crown, the plate opposite the lock for the bolt to anchor into has one with a crown and a very obvious W. I know virtually nothing as to the anthropology of firearms but could that indicate its two different guns brought together in a new stock? As far as the date, could the CH 43 on the breech plug be referring to 1843? Im sorry for all the questions im just a bit out of my familiar zone and trying to get to the bottom of this interesting piece.