Middle eastern musket ID help

BlacksmithingWitch · 21st February 2017, 02:52 AM

the only reason i consider a new stock would be this one has had a hole wallowed through where the front strap should go. however any looseness i notice is likely due to the fact that the bands are completely missing to secure the stock and barrel. however theres enough of a discoloration on the barrel and wood in-person to tell what they looked like so i can fabricate new ones. I wouldnt dream of doing anything to alter something more than what it would take to keep it alive as a weapon and art piece. There just so happens to be a gunsmith specializing in flint and caplock pieces near me and I suppose I'll be calling them very soon. Ive never seen a gun quite like this and im really happy i spent the money to acquire it when I did. Is there any special trick to removing the lock? or should it just unscrew? I ask because there is a round area that looks like a bolt head but has two small holes instead of a slot for a screwdriver, I may need to get a cheap screwdriver and modify it to fit into those divots if that indeed is what it is.

kahnjar1 · 22nd February 2017, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlacksmithingWitch

the only reason i consider a new stock would be this one has had a hole wallowed through where the front strap should go. however any looseness i notice is likely due to the fact that the bands are completely missing to secure the stock and barrel. however theres enough of a discoloration on the barrel and wood in-person to tell what they looked like so i can fabricate new ones. I wouldnt dream of doing anything to alter something more than what it would take to keep it alive as a weapon and art piece. There just so happens to be a gunsmith specializing in flint and caplock pieces near me and I suppose I'll be calling them very soon. Ive never seen a gun quite like this and im really happy i spent the money to acquire it when I did. Is there any special trick to removing the lock? or should it just unscrew? I ask because there is a round area that looks like a bolt head but has two small holes instead of a slot for a screwdriver, I may need to get a cheap screwdriver and modify it to fit into those divots if that indeed is what it is.

Your gunsmith should have a "key" to remove the lock screw, or you can easily make one as you describe.
Stu

rickystl · 25th February 2017, 04:04 PM

Hi Blacksmith.

This is what is generally termed a back-action lock. What looks to be a screw with two little holes at the rear is likely not a screw, but just a positioning post. (don't recall the proper name) to help keep the lock in place. If you just put the hammer in half-cock position and remove the one large screw, the lock should just lift out at a slight angle. You will notice the reat of the lockplate will have a slot vs. a hole for a screw. Give it a try. Are there any screws on the left side of the stock ?

Rick

BlacksmithingWitch · 27th February 2017, 03:13 AM

Long awaited pictures, and in reply to the statement about the lock lifting out, you were correct! it popped out. I cleaned it only slightly with a bit of 0000 steel wool, wiped wet, and then a wipe of oil, and im amazed at the beauty of this old rifle after just simply wiping way the surface rust and the crud that had accumulated over the very deep patina. the stock got a similar treatment with superfine sanding of the outer layer of dirt, and a good wipedown with oil. Its amazing seeing the dark patterns of use where the hands and cheek rested. There arent any screws on the left of the stock, however there is a roughly triangular lobed piece of metal recessed into the piece that serves as something solid for the bolt securing the lock to screw into. After it fell out while removing the lock, and knocking off a bit of dried something-or-other, there was a small hallmark of a crown with a W beneath it on that small metal piece.

And now for the big event, some photos of various items. If all goes in order, the following show: the butt plate top. The plate itself is simple metal held by small nails around the perimeter of the butt of the stock, this piece folded over the top is the decorated bit.
Next is the trigger guard decorations. If it helps to ID the gun, the guard removes by removing a screw in front of the trigger and the back of the guard swings out of a slot once the front is free.
Next is a decoration on the grip area of the stock behind where the barrel screws on.
Following that is a view of the breach area itself,
and finally there is an up close view of the metal sheath tht covers the front end of the stock and helps hold the ramrod in place

BlacksmithingWitch · 27th February 2017, 03:23 AM

here are some more pictures, this time of barrel markings. The first two are on the underside approximately 2 and 8 inches from the breech end of the barrel respectively. the third one is right at the breach on the underside, the next one is right on the back of the breech plug. theres also a small mark of a letter, maybe an E, in a circle on the left side opposite of the nipple, and a small hallmark inside the lock of an F under a crown.

BlacksmithingWitch · 1st March 2017, 01:24 AM

another update as I wait for thoughts on this, I was cleaning and oiling the barrel bore as i didnt like the look of the rust forming inside, and as I was cleaning down near the breach, there came a rattling noise and out plonked a few dozen roughly hexagonal lead bits, packed in a honeycomb form 3 layers thick, that had at one point been wrapped in greased paper. There strangely enough didnt seem to be any powder behind the projectile however, thankful for that as i dont want anything corrossive down where it cant be kept stable. overall the barrel seems to be in ok shape albeit a bit dull inside, i plan to take it to a gunsmith soon to get the twice-over and their opinion on the origin as well.

rickystl · 4th March 2017, 04:58 PM

Hi Blacksmith.
Thanks for all the additional photos. Don't know where to start. LOL Here are some additional observations:
LOCK: The lock, trigger, trigger guard, rear sight, and rear sling swival all appear to be from the French musket posted above. The trigger guard just engraved to suit local tastes. The lock even uses European pan head screws.
STOCK: That decorative wrist plate looks very similar to ones you see on Ottoman/Balkan style horse pistols, just larger. That long, brass muzzle cap is also something more likely to appear on Ottoman/Balkan style guns. Again, to suit local tastes. The brass butt plate being a locally made item.
BARREL: I believe this barrel started life as a European made item for use with a flintlock. The barrel being recycled with a locally made percussion bolster added. You can see the weld thread. The engraved brass overlays being added to the barrel, again for local tastes. The breech plug and breech look robust, and of European manufacture. I'm not sure about the barrel marks. The E with a circle around it may be a Belgium proof mark (?) It might be worth posting the barrel mark photos on the European Forum to see if anyone can identify them.
Overall, it is a very neat and interesting gun. Nice find.

SHOOTING THE GUN: If you decide you would like to shoot the gun, I would recommend you have the barrel inspected by an experienced muzzle loading, black powder (not modern) gunsmith for his opinion. I would have him remove the breech plug and check for plug to breech thread integrity. While the plug is out you can do a good cleaning and inspect the breech. As long as there is no deep pitting, the barrel (since it's smoothbore) can be burnished out smooth again. Also, get his opinion of the percussion bolster strength and the threads for the nipple. You will probably need a new musket size nipple. If the bolster threads for the nipple appear too worn or loose, the gunsmith can insert a new heli coil.

Rick

27th February 2017, 03:13 AM	#4
BlacksmithingWitch Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 13	Long awaited pictures, and in reply to the statement about the lock lifting out, you were correct! it popped out. I cleaned it only slightly with a bit of 0000 steel wool, wiped wet, and then a wipe of oil, and im amazed at the beauty of this old rifle after just simply wiping way the surface rust and the crud that had accumulated over the very deep patina. the stock got a similar treatment with superfine sanding of the outer layer of dirt, and a good wipedown with oil. Its amazing seeing the dark patterns of use where the hands and cheek rested. There arent any screws on the left of the stock, however there is a roughly triangular lobed piece of metal recessed into the piece that serves as something solid for the bolt securing the lock to screw into. After it fell out while removing the lock, and knocking off a bit of dried something-or-other, there was a small hallmark of a crown with a W beneath it on that small metal piece. And now for the big event, some photos of various items. If all goes in order, the following show: the butt plate top. The plate itself is simple metal held by small nails around the perimeter of the butt of the stock, this piece folded over the top is the decorated bit. Next is the trigger guard decorations. If it helps to ID the gun, the guard removes by removing a screw in front of the trigger and the back of the guard swings out of a slot once the front is free. Next is a decoration on the grip area of the stock behind where the barrel screws on. Following that is a view of the breach area itself, and finally there is an up close view of the metal sheath tht covers the front end of the stock and helps hold the ramrod in place Attached Images

27th February 2017, 03:23 AM	#5
BlacksmithingWitch Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 13	here are some more pictures, this time of barrel markings. The first two are on the underside approximately 2 and 8 inches from the breech end of the barrel respectively. the third one is right at the breach on the underside, the next one is right on the back of the breech plug. theres also a small mark of a letter, maybe an E, in a circle on the left side opposite of the nipple, and a small hallmark inside the lock of an F under a crown. Attached Images

21st February 2017, 02:52 AM	#1
BlacksmithingWitch Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 13	the only reason i consider a new stock would be this one has had a hole wallowed through where the front strap should go. however any looseness i notice is likely due to the fact that the bands are completely missing to secure the stock and barrel. however theres enough of a discoloration on the barrel and wood in-person to tell what they looked like so i can fabricate new ones. I wouldnt dream of doing anything to alter something more than what it would take to keep it alive as a weapon and art piece. There just so happens to be a gunsmith specializing in flint and caplock pieces near me and I suppose I'll be calling them very soon. Ive never seen a gun quite like this and im really happy i spent the money to acquire it when I did. Is there any special trick to removing the lock? or should it just unscrew? I ask because there is a round area that looks like a bolt head but has two small holes instead of a slot for a screwdriver, I may need to get a cheap screwdriver and modify it to fit into those divots if that indeed is what it is.

25th February 2017, 04:04 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,629	Hi Blacksmith. This is what is generally termed a back-action lock. What looks to be a screw with two little holes at the rear is likely not a screw, but just a positioning post. (don't recall the proper name) to help keep the lock in place. If you just put the hammer in half-cock position and remove the one large screw, the lock should just lift out at a slight angle. You will notice the reat of the lockplate will have a slot vs. a hole for a screw. Give it a try. Are there any screws on the left side of the stock ? Rick

1st March 2017, 01:24 AM	#6
BlacksmithingWitch Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 13	another update as I wait for thoughts on this, I was cleaning and oiling the barrel bore as i didnt like the look of the rust forming inside, and as I was cleaning down near the breach, there came a rattling noise and out plonked a few dozen roughly hexagonal lead bits, packed in a honeycomb form 3 layers thick, that had at one point been wrapped in greased paper. There strangely enough didnt seem to be any powder behind the projectile however, thankful for that as i dont want anything corrossive down where it cant be kept stable. overall the barrel seems to be in ok shape albeit a bit dull inside, i plan to take it to a gunsmith soon to get the twice-over and their opinion on the origin as well.

4th March 2017, 04:58 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,629	Hi Blacksmith. Thanks for all the additional photos. Don't know where to start. LOL Here are some additional observations: LOCK: The lock, trigger, trigger guard, rear sight, and rear sling swival all appear to be from the French musket posted above. The trigger guard just engraved to suit local tastes. The lock even uses European pan head screws. STOCK: That decorative wrist plate looks very similar to ones you see on Ottoman/Balkan style horse pistols, just larger. That long, brass muzzle cap is also something more likely to appear on Ottoman/Balkan style guns. Again, to suit local tastes. The brass butt plate being a locally made item. BARREL: I believe this barrel started life as a European made item for use with a flintlock. The barrel being recycled with a locally made percussion bolster added. You can see the weld thread. The engraved brass overlays being added to the barrel, again for local tastes. The breech plug and breech look robust, and of European manufacture. I'm not sure about the barrel marks. The E with a circle around it may be a Belgium proof mark (?) It might be worth posting the barrel mark photos on the European Forum to see if anyone can identify them. Overall, it is a very neat and interesting gun. Nice find. SHOOTING THE GUN: If you decide you would like to shoot the gun, I would recommend you have the barrel inspected by an experienced muzzle loading, black powder (not modern) gunsmith for his opinion. I would have him remove the breech plug and check for plug to breech thread integrity. While the plug is out you can do a good cleaning and inspect the breech. As long as there is no deep pitting, the barrel (since it's smoothbore) can be burnished out smooth again. Also, get his opinion of the percussion bolster strength and the threads for the nipple. You will probably need a new musket size nipple. If the bolster threads for the nipple appear too worn or loose, the gunsmith can insert a new heli coil. Rick