Another early shibriya

motan · 28th January 2017, 11:01 PM

Hi Miguel, Thanks for asking. I will comment on them one by one and that will take a while. I am not a very good expert on the subject, so don't take my comments as the truth but as an opinion.
As for the general lack of information, I think that shibriyas were not valued because they were primitive relative to other weapons from the surrounding areas (Syria for example), were low-grade workmanship and relatively recent. However, at least up to 1960, they were made mainly for local use and were carried by local tribesmen as well as by the soldiers of the Arab Legion. Even today, some bedouin wear them for festive or official occasions (like my good friend A'wad from the Azazme). Therefore, they are authentic ethnographic weapons and deserve at least some recognition. As for their use, they are definately weapons and not utility knifes (despite claims of the opposite) simply because they are shaped like pure stabbing weapons and are not much good for anything else. Like all Middle Eastern daggers, they are also man's juwelry and a symbol of manhood.

No. 1-Definately the oldest of the lot. Probably made in Jordan where the majority of shibriyas were made. This shape of pommel is known, but not very common. The long and relatively narrow blade is a sign of older ones (thanks Artzi). I would say it is from the late 1920's or from the 1930's. In pic 1 and 2, I show similar ones
No. 2-The most difficult to place and date for me. The style bears resemblance to a known type shown in pic 3. I believe that this one (as well as my example) are the only ones of the lot of Palestinian origin. I base this on the style of decoration on the scabbard which is definately Palestinian. The age is difficult to gues because I recognize stages only in the more common Jordanian types.
The rest tommorow. Eytan

ariel · 29th January 2017, 02:41 AM

There is a guy in Latvia named Denis Cherevichnik who is into history of knife fights around the world ( he even wrote a big book about it with deep analysis of literally hundreds of historical sources in several languages and spanning several centuries).

He published an article ( in Russian, unfortunately for most of the Forumites) about Sica, a dog-leg curved Roman ( or Dacian) dagger. To make the long story short, he makes connection between Sica and Shibria. Indeed, they look virtually identical. Whether it is a case of parallel development or of some atavistic feature is uncertain, but the idea is intriguing.

A.alnakkas · 29th January 2017, 06:13 AM

This may be weaker than a hypothesis, but upon examining shibriya blades, I always get the impression that it is a crude imitation of the khanjar curve that eventually gave way to this type.

Miguel · 29th January 2017, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

This may be weaker than a hypothesis, but upon examining shibriya blades, I always get the impression that it is a crude imitation of the khanjar curve that eventually gave way to this type.

I can see where you are coming from as the same thoughts had occurred to me but I'm not at all certain that this is the case. Incidentally does any of the script on the blades of No`s 3 & 5 make any sense to you.

Regards
Miguel

ariel · 29th January 2017, 04:22 PM

Lotfy,

It is not as simple. Google Sica Images and look at old excavated examples. They are "dog-leg", unlike gently curving khanjars. The unusual form of shibriya is deliberate and without an analogue anywhere else, except for Sica:-)

Please recall Judean "sicarii" around the time of Roman destruction of Second Temple. History has quite a lot of unusual twists and we might be wise to keep snippets of strange occurencies in the back of our collective mind. Of course, the connection between the two is nebulous and has no proof. But who knows? Sooner or later we might find actual facts confirming or refuting this hypothesis.

Miguel · 29th January 2017, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

There is a guy in Latvia named Denis Cherevichnik who is into history of knife fights around the world ( he even wrote a big book about it with deep analysis of literally hundreds of historical sources in several languages and spanning several centuries).

He published an article ( in Russian, unfortunately for most of the Forumites) about Sica, a dog-leg curved Roman ( or Dacian) dagger. To make the long story short, he makes connection between Sica and Shibria. Indeed, they look virtually identical. Whether it is a case of parallel development or of some atavistic feature is uncertain, but the idea is intriguing.

Hello Ariel, Interesting idea worth looking into.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel · 29th January 2017, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Hi Miguel, Thanks for asking. I will comment on them one by one and that will take a while. I am not a very good expert on the subject, so don't take my comments as the truth but as an opinion.
As for the general lack of information, I think that shibriyas were not valued because they were primitive relative to other weapons from the surrounding areas (Syria for example), were low-grade workmanship and relatively recent. However, at least up to 1960, they were made mainly for local use and were carried by local tribesmen as well as by the soldiers of the Arab Legion. Even today, some bedouin wear them for festive or official occasions (like my good friend A'wad from the Azazme). Therefore, they are authentic ethnographic weapons and deserve at least some recognition. As for their use, they are definately weapons and not utility knifes (despite claims of the opposite) simply because they are shaped like pure stabbing weapons and are not much good for anything else. Like all Middle Eastern daggers, they are also man's juwelry and a symbol of manhood.

No. 1-Definately the oldest of the lot. Probably made in Jordan where the majority of shibriyas were made. This shape of pommel is known, but not very common. The long and relatively narrow blade is a sign of older ones (thanks Artzi). I would say it is from the late 1920's or from the 1930's. In
pic 1 and 2, I show similar ones
No. 2-The most difficult to place and date for me. The style bears resemblance to a known type shown in pic 3. I believe that this one (as well as my example) are the only ones of the lot of Palestinian origin. I base this on the style of decoration on the scabbard which is definately Palestinian. The age is difficult to gues because I recognize stages only in the more common Jordanian types.
The rest tommorow. Eytan

Hello Motan, Thank you for your interesting and enlightening comments and look forward to reading the rest when you have the time. One thing I should point out is that the pics are not in the order I posted them as they seem to have gotten mixed up. The first set of 3 pics is No 2 of my script, the second set is No 1, the third set is No 4, the fourth set is No 3 and the fith set of four pics is correct. I apologise for the mix up but I don't know how it happened.
Regards
Miguel

Sajen · 29th January 2017, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

I apologise for the mix up but I don't know how it happened.

Hi Miguel,

when you load up every picture separate the come in the order you wish!

Regards,
Detlef

motan · 29th January 2017, 10:32 PM

Hi all,
Thanks for all your comments. I didn't expect this thread to raise much interest, but I am happy to be wrong.
Ariel, your theory is the stuff of legends..but that is what I think it is. There is so much time between the Romans and WWI and so little evidence that I don't think it is plausible. Re-curve blades are found mainly in Indian weapons, like Khanjarli and they are more likely source of inspiration. Perhaps the need to make those pointy dog-leg daggers into more effective stabbing weapons lead the smiths to turn the point forward in line with the hilt? Who knows.
Early photos of bedouins show many swords, but few daggers. Perhaps the popularity of daggers was caused by a change in the way of fighting. A sword is cumbersome for a dismounted fighter with a modern rifle as main weapon.
Miguel, nevermind the mixup in the photos. The order works fine for me and I will keep it.
The last group of 3 shibriyas are all one family. This type was made in large quantities between the early 1940's and the early 1960' in workshops around Amman, Jordan. These are the most typical and well known types of shibriya. What I say is not speculation because many are dated and signed. Number 4 in the current order is dated to 1370 Hijri date, about 1951, and number 5 is date to 1955 in arabic numbers and Gregorian date. Hijri dates are quite uncommon. Most have Gregorian dates. This is true for all dated daggers from the region after the end of Ottoman rule. It could be because of the souvenier trade, or maybe because they started to use Gregorian dates for daily purposes.
No 3 looks a bit older and has a less common pommel shape. The flat, straight-end pommel of 4 and 5 is the most common for the 1950' and early 60'. You can see the similarity of the simple decoration between 3 and 4, especially on the hilt. The multiple wire decorations on the scabbard, the little rings in 5, the gold color decorations on the hilt of 4 and the coin IMPRESSIONS are all recurrent elements of the period. These impressions were made by laying the metal sheet over the coin and pressing with softer material such as wood. Iraqi coins were most popular and this one in 5 could be of king Ghazi/Faisal of Iraq who ruled from 1933 to 1939. A possible candidate is this silver 20 Fils from 1938. I don't read Arabic, but I could ask someone to read and translate the writing. Lastly, the circle with writing on the blade, as well images of pigeons indicate Jordenian origin, even on early pieces like the beatiful example in picture 2.

ariel · 30th January 2017, 02:10 AM

Moran,
This is emphatically not MY theory. This was taken from Denis' article. The ownership is his, and his alone.

I agree with your objections, the connection is highly implausible. But I would still give Denis the benefit of the doubt. He researches his subjects carefully and is definitely not a blowhard.

Hopefully, at some stage of the game he may want to revisit his idea ( not even "a theory" that requires at least a modicum of factual information) and give us a more definitive answer.

motan · 30th January 2017, 08:34 AM

Hi Ariel, you are right of course. It was late and I did use my words a bit loosely. Denis' idea is a hypothesis and not a theory and I only meant that it was yours because you brought it up, eventhough you did not give an indication that you actually support it. But I am not a moran

. There are hardley any bedouin daggers that were made before 1900 and survived. They are not very sturdy and were discarded when out of use. Many shibriyas found in local souks are in very poor shape. This, together with the lack of written sources, make it highly unlikely to find any evidense supporting Denis' idea. In my view, shibriyas are a local type with very humble beginnings (see picture) made in small towns bordering the Syrian desert/Negev/Sinai to the needs and imagination of local users, but this idea is only based on observation and deduction from scant evidence.

motan · 30th January 2017, 08:48 AM

Hi Miguel, I hope you are not too dissapointed by my comment. You have a nice group of shybriyas representing both the hay day of shibriyas making with two older and rarer types. You were also right about most of them. They are all in very good shape, which is not that common. In short, a good representative group.
Eytan

Miguel · 2nd February 2017, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Miguel,

when you load up every picture separate the come in the order you wish!

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef, I am sorry for the delayed reply but I missed your post completely till now. Wished I had seen it sooner as I have just made the same mistake again

I will remember next time. Thanks for pointing it out.
Regards
Miguel

28th January 2017, 11:01 PM	#1
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Comments Hi Miguel, Thanks for asking. I will comment on them one by one and that will take a while. I am not a very good expert on the subject, so don't take my comments as the truth but as an opinion. As for the general lack of information, I think that shibriyas were not valued because they were primitive relative to other weapons from the surrounding areas (Syria for example), were low-grade workmanship and relatively recent. However, at least up to 1960, they were made mainly for local use and were carried by local tribesmen as well as by the soldiers of the Arab Legion. Even today, some bedouin wear them for festive or official occasions (like my good friend A'wad from the Azazme). Therefore, they are authentic ethnographic weapons and deserve at least some recognition. As for their use, they are definately weapons and not utility knifes (despite claims of the opposite) simply because they are shaped like pure stabbing weapons and are not much good for anything else. Like all Middle Eastern daggers, they are also man's juwelry and a symbol of manhood. No. 1-Definately the oldest of the lot. Probably made in Jordan where the majority of shibriyas were made. This shape of pommel is known, but not very common. The long and relatively narrow blade is a sign of older ones (thanks Artzi). I would say it is from the late 1920's or from the 1930's. In pic 1 and 2, I show similar ones No. 2-The most difficult to place and date for me. The style bears resemblance to a known type shown in pic 3. I believe that this one (as well as my example) are the only ones of the lot of Palestinian origin. I base this on the style of decoration on the scabbard which is definately Palestinian. The age is difficult to gues because I recognize stages only in the more common Jordanian types. The rest tommorow. Eytan Attached Images

29th January 2017, 10:32 PM	#9
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi all, Thanks for all your comments. I didn't expect this thread to raise much interest, but I am happy to be wrong. Ariel, your theory is the stuff of legends..but that is what I think it is. There is so much time between the Romans and WWI and so little evidence that I don't think it is plausible. Re-curve blades are found mainly in Indian weapons, like Khanjarli and they are more likely source of inspiration. Perhaps the need to make those pointy dog-leg daggers into more effective stabbing weapons lead the smiths to turn the point forward in line with the hilt? Who knows. Early photos of bedouins show many swords, but few daggers. Perhaps the popularity of daggers was caused by a change in the way of fighting. A sword is cumbersome for a dismounted fighter with a modern rifle as main weapon. Miguel, nevermind the mixup in the photos. The order works fine for me and I will keep it. The last group of 3 shibriyas are all one family. This type was made in large quantities between the early 1940's and the early 1960' in workshops around Amman, Jordan. These are the most typical and well known types of shibriya. What I say is not speculation because many are dated and signed. Number 4 in the current order is dated to 1370 Hijri date, about 1951, and number 5 is date to 1955 in arabic numbers and Gregorian date. Hijri dates are quite uncommon. Most have Gregorian dates. This is true for all dated daggers from the region after the end of Ottoman rule. It could be because of the souvenier trade, or maybe because they started to use Gregorian dates for daily purposes. No 3 looks a bit older and has a less common pommel shape. The flat, straight-end pommel of 4 and 5 is the most common for the 1950' and early 60'. You can see the similarity of the simple decoration between 3 and 4, especially on the hilt. The multiple wire decorations on the scabbard, the little rings in 5, the gold color decorations on the hilt of 4 and the coin IMPRESSIONS are all recurrent elements of the period. These impressions were made by laying the metal sheet over the coin and pressing with softer material such as wood. Iraqi coins were most popular and this one in 5 could be of king Ghazi/Faisal of Iraq who ruled from 1933 to 1939. A possible candidate is this silver 20 Fils from 1938. I don't read Arabic, but I could ask someone to read and translate the writing. Lastly, the circle with writing on the blade, as well images of pigeons indicate Jordenian origin, even on early pieces like the beatiful example in picture 2. Attached Images

30th January 2017, 08:34 AM	#11
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	To Ariel Hi Ariel, you are right of course. It was late and I did use my words a bit loosely. Denis' idea is a hypothesis and not a theory and I only meant that it was yours because you brought it up, eventhough you did not give an indication that you actually support it. But I am not a moran . There are hardley any bedouin daggers that were made before 1900 and survived. They are not very sturdy and were discarded when out of use. Many shibriyas found in local souks are in very poor shape. This, together with the lack of written sources, make it highly unlikely to find any evidense supporting Denis' idea. In my view, shibriyas are a local type with very humble beginnings (see picture) made in small towns bordering the Syrian desert/Negev/Sinai to the needs and imagination of local users, but this idea is only based on observation and deduction from scant evidence. Attached Images

30th January 2017, 08:48 AM	#12
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	To Miguel Hi Miguel, I hope you are not too dissapointed by my comment. You have a nice group of shybriyas representing both the hay day of shibriyas making with two older and rarer types. You were also right about most of them. They are all in very good shape, which is not that common. In short, a good representative group. Eytan

29th January 2017, 02:41 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There is a guy in Latvia named Denis Cherevichnik who is into history of knife fights around the world ( he even wrote a big book about it with deep analysis of literally hundreds of historical sources in several languages and spanning several centuries). He published an article ( in Russian, unfortunately for most of the Forumites) about Sica, a dog-leg curved Roman ( or Dacian) dagger. To make the long story short, he makes connection between Sica and Shibria. Indeed, they look virtually identical. Whether it is a case of parallel development or of some atavistic feature is uncertain, but the idea is intriguing.

29th January 2017, 06:13 AM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	This may be weaker than a hypothesis, but upon examining shibriya blades, I always get the impression that it is a crude imitation of the khanjar curve that eventually gave way to this type.

29th January 2017, 04:22 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Lotfy, It is not as simple. Google Sica Images and look at old excavated examples. They are "dog-leg", unlike gently curving khanjars. The unusual form of shibriya is deliberate and without an analogue anywhere else, except for Sica:-) Please recall Judean "sicarii" around the time of Roman destruction of Second Temple. History has quite a lot of unusual twists and we might be wise to keep snippets of strange occurencies in the back of our collective mind. Of course, the connection between the two is nebulous and has no proof. But who knows? Sooner or later we might find actual facts confirming or refuting this hypothesis.

30th January 2017, 02:10 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Moran, This is emphatically not MY theory. This was taken from Denis' article. The ownership is his, and his alone. I agree with your objections, the connection is highly implausible. But I would still give Denis the benefit of the doubt. He researches his subjects carefully and is definitely not a blowhard. Hopefully, at some stage of the game he may want to revisit his idea ( not even "a theory" that requires at least a modicum of factual information) and give us a more definitive answer.