Tulwar handles on e-bay

stenoyab · 22nd January 2017, 09:51 AM

Interesting thread, I am most happy that I was not the only one to find the hilts interesting in their own right. And in some ways easier to display, forming quiet an aesthetically pleasing display.

On the whole I find the hilts and blades to be untouched, I think some with a freshly cut short blade are where they have shortened them to sell/ship, as its easier to sell/ship the stub of a blade, then sell/ship a rusty old broken 2/3 length blade.

Sadly they are making new tulwar hilts, they also sometimes heavily restore old hilts or make them up from parts of several donor hilts. As with any collecting its always buyer beware.

ariel · 22nd January 2017, 11:40 AM

Egerton's book consists essentially of 2 parts.

The main one is a catalog of collection of the old India House, showing systematic groupings of weapons that came to England over many years from other sources. These are presented as careful drawings. The attribution was based on somebody else's notes and inevitably contained errors.

For example, #332 in Plate IX is an Ottoman yataghan and ( likely) Arabian Shafra ( #348) grouped together with Nepalese arms. Likely, they were COLLECTED in Nepal and Egerton fully relied on the information from an unknown visitor there.

Plate XIV ( "Arms of Sindh") presents a classical Afghani Choora ( #624). Interestingly, its actual description states that it was collected in Banu (formerly Dhulipnagar, subsequently Edwardsabad), a town in the Pahtunhwa province of contemporary Western Pakistan, right at the Eastern opening of the Khyber Pass.

The second, a smaller, part of the book is a personal Egerton Collection: as opposed to the first one the items are actually photographed while hung on walls. This one is interesting from the point of view of the current discussion. Whereas most of the examples were acquired by Egerton from other British collections ( mostly of Colonel Hamilton) and European sales, there is a large number labeled as " Bought at Delhi, 1855". Was it the time of the alleged trip to India mentioned by Robinson?

Other than this flimsy hint I could not find any mention of actual trip to India in several biographies of Lord Egerton.

fernando · 22nd January 2017, 04:44 PM

Meaning to say that there is a great probability that Lord Wilbrahim Egerton has never seen things in loco and all that he wrote about was what he had at hand, here in the West. A bit of a disenchantment, i figure

Mercenary · 22nd January 2017, 05:34 PM

Many thanks to all.
I suppose Lord Egerton bought weapons when he was in India in 1855 (he was 23 years old) like many others at that time, but to learn and describe it he started after the travel. I did not see in his book any information similar to the information from first hand (from the Indians). Anyway he is great researcher and thanks him a lot.

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2017, 06:10 PM

It seems that there is no biographical data on Lord Egerton beyond his political and peerage status, not even much family data other than the hugely complex pedigree.
It does seem quite possible, perhaps even likely, he may have gone to India as noted c. 1855 (by 1858 he was securely in the British political scene in England). In that time he may have become fascinated with the weaponry which could have inspired his collecting and cataloging of these weapon forms. His command of the objects seems far too detailed for someone simply working from loosely described items in a cluttered array of arms in stored holdings.
Still we can only assume this to be the case, but as noted, we owe him gratitude for his contribution with his benchmark of arms study.

It seems incredible that in the biographical data on line, absolutely no mention is made of this monumental achievement. Clearly his peerage and political career weighed far more heavily than a study of arms from India, in which there was little interest. As I noted earlier, in his study on swords in 1884, Burton obviously had no interest in those of India as no mention in this otherwise reasonably comprehensive book is made of them as far as contemporary forms.

I have often wondered if Burton ever knew, or knew of Egerton and his book, which was published four years before Burton's. In Egertons work, the weapons of Sind are included, and Burton had been there in 1875, yet he makes no mention of any of them, however he does spend 6 pages in ancient Indian history and classic weaponry. His comments are derisive in that he notes that all Hindu arms and armour are described as attributed to supernatural causes and scoffs at such descriptions as well as the work of Professor Oppert (1880).

Lee · 21st March 2017, 04:29 PM

Mr. Roy Elvis mentioned in his Timonium Ethnographic Arms presentation this past Saturday that many of the tulwar hilts with cut-away blades may have come from the armory at Thanjour (Thanjavur) in southern India. He related that at some point in the 19th century the (obsolete) weapons from the armory were dumped into a disused water storage structure on the palace grounds. Following a change in administration, these were retrieved with the best going into a local museum and other better examples being acquired by a gentleman whose name I failed to capture. The bulk were sent intended for recycling of the metal, but many were covertly retained except that the blades were cut away - likely due to the legal restrictions noted above.

Perhaps another attendee will better remember or has recorded that part of the presentation and can clarify on this. Mr. Elvis has generously consented to make his PowerPoint file with its embedded notes available to the community and also hopes to release a book on the topic of southern Indian arms later this year.

ariel · 22nd March 2017, 04:13 PM

The file and especially the book will be greatly appreciated.
If anyone gets a wind of the publication, please post it here!!!

22nd January 2017, 09:51 AM	#1
stenoyab Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43	Interesting thread, I am most happy that I was not the only one to find the hilts interesting in their own right. And in some ways easier to display, forming quiet an aesthetically pleasing display. On the whole I find the hilts and blades to be untouched, I think some with a freshly cut short blade are where they have shortened them to sell/ship, as its easier to sell/ship the stub of a blade, then sell/ship a rusty old broken 2/3 length blade. Sadly they are making new tulwar hilts, they also sometimes heavily restore old hilts or make them up from parts of several donor hilts. As with any collecting its always buyer beware. Attached Images

22nd January 2017, 06:10 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	It seems that there is no biographical data on Lord Egerton beyond his political and peerage status, not even much family data other than the hugely complex pedigree. It does seem quite possible, perhaps even likely, he may have gone to India as noted c. 1855 (by 1858 he was securely in the British political scene in England). In that time he may have become fascinated with the weaponry which could have inspired his collecting and cataloging of these weapon forms. His command of the objects seems far too detailed for someone simply working from loosely described items in a cluttered array of arms in stored holdings. Still we can only assume this to be the case, but as noted, we owe him gratitude for his contribution with his benchmark of arms study. It seems incredible that in the biographical data on line, absolutely no mention is made of this monumental achievement. Clearly his peerage and political career weighed far more heavily than a study of arms from India, in which there was little interest. As I noted earlier, in his study on swords in 1884, Burton obviously had no interest in those of India as no mention in this otherwise reasonably comprehensive book is made of them as far as contemporary forms. I have often wondered if Burton ever knew, or knew of Egerton and his book, which was published four years before Burton's. In Egertons work, the weapons of Sind are included, and Burton had been there in 1875, yet he makes no mention of any of them, however he does spend 6 pages in ancient Indian history and classic weaponry. His comments are derisive in that he notes that all Hindu arms and armour are described as attributed to supernatural causes and scoffs at such descriptions as well as the work of Professor Oppert (1880). Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd January 2017 at 03:20 AM.

22nd January 2017, 11:40 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Egerton's book consists essentially of 2 parts. The main one is a catalog of collection of the old India House, showing systematic groupings of weapons that came to England over many years from other sources. These are presented as careful drawings. The attribution was based on somebody else's notes and inevitably contained errors. For example, #332 in Plate IX is an Ottoman yataghan and ( likely) Arabian Shafra ( #348) grouped together with Nepalese arms. Likely, they were COLLECTED in Nepal and Egerton fully relied on the information from an unknown visitor there. Plate XIV ( "Arms of Sindh") presents a classical Afghani Choora ( #624). Interestingly, its actual description states that it was collected in Banu (formerly Dhulipnagar, subsequently Edwardsabad), a town in the Pahtunhwa province of contemporary Western Pakistan, right at the Eastern opening of the Khyber Pass. The second, a smaller, part of the book is a personal Egerton Collection: as opposed to the first one the items are actually photographed while hung on walls. This one is interesting from the point of view of the current discussion. Whereas most of the examples were acquired by Egerton from other British collections ( mostly of Colonel Hamilton) and European sales, there is a large number labeled as " Bought at Delhi, 1855". Was it the time of the alleged trip to India mentioned by Robinson? Other than this flimsy hint I could not find any mention of actual trip to India in several biographies of Lord Egerton.

22nd January 2017, 04:44 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Meaning to say that there is a great probability that Lord Wilbrahim Egerton has never seen things in loco and all that he wrote about was what he had at hand, here in the West. A bit of a disenchantment, i figure

22nd January 2017, 05:34 PM	#4
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	Many thanks to all. I suppose Lord Egerton bought weapons when he was in India in 1855 (he was 23 years old) like many others at that time, but to learn and describe it he started after the travel. I did not see in his book any information similar to the information from first hand (from the Indians). Anyway he is great researcher and thanks him a lot.

21st March 2017, 04:29 PM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	The source of some Tulwar hilts with cut away blades Mr. Roy Elvis mentioned in his Timonium Ethnographic Arms presentation this past Saturday that many of the tulwar hilts with cut-away blades may have come from the armory at Thanjour (Thanjavur) in southern India. He related that at some point in the 19th century the (obsolete) weapons from the armory were dumped into a disused water storage structure on the palace grounds. Following a change in administration, these were retrieved with the best going into a local museum and other better examples being acquired by a gentleman whose name I failed to capture. The bulk were sent intended for recycling of the metal, but many were covertly retained except that the blades were cut away - likely due to the legal restrictions noted above. Perhaps another attendee will better remember or has recorded that part of the presentation and can clarify on this. Mr. Elvis has generously consented to make his PowerPoint file with its embedded notes available to the community and also hopes to release a book on the topic of southern Indian arms later this year.

22nd March 2017, 04:13 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The file and especially the book will be greatly appreciated. If anyone gets a wind of the publication, please post it here!!!