Another early shibriya

A.alnakkas · 20th January 2017, 08:40 PM

Hey Motan,

I have been following your contributions with great interest and like you, I struggle with the lack of material. Shibriyas are usually simple, but some examples are quite nice. Is it the size or the blade that makes a dagger a shibriya? Arabs in all regions that use shibriyas (more wide spread than the levant) define it by the size. While Western collectors I notice to define it by blade type.

I like your older examples, rarely find them lately.

motan · 20th January 2017, 11:48 PM

Hi A.alnakkas,
Thanks for your sympathetic post. Unfortunately, I have no real answers. Shibr or shiber is an old Arab length unit denoting the distance between the tip of the pink and the tip of the thumb when the hand palm is fully spreat. This avarages 20cm (just under 8 inch). It is said that the name shibriya originates from this distance. While this could be true, it does not make practical sense because in most shibriyas the blade is shorter than 20cm, but the whole dagger is longer. Perhaps when the name stuck to the dagger, avarage blade length was 20cm, but even early shibriyas by the same maker vary greatly in size, as you can see above.
Shibriya is a name, not a definition, so like in most daggers, there is no absolute truth. Bedouin daggers with recurve blade are called shibriya by both collectors and local people. There are some mixed dharia/shibriya types from the Hijaz, but I don't know how local called them. There are also some mixed forms in from Syria. I think that all Syrian dagger are caller khanjar-the generic name for dagger in arabic. Other shibriya-like daggers from Palestine and also those from Majdal Shams are also called khanjar by local people (not jambiya, as they are often reffered to by collectors).
In photographs predating WWI, bedouin (bedu) carry daggers similar to the shibriya, but with specific curved blade shape that is popular in other daggers from the same period and area. I don't know how they were called. This rather lengthy post sumarizes what I know. I added some examples and old photos of this latter shibriya precursor type.
Regards, Eytan

ariel · 21st January 2017, 01:58 AM

Dog-leg.

motan · 21st January 2017, 01:16 PM

Thanks Ariel. Dog-leg it is. Dog-leg blade is also the tell tale sign of older Majdalis between late 19th century and WWI.
Disk and ring on the pommel are typical of pre-shibriyas as well as early shibriyas, and went out of fashion around 1940. One or two sub-types kept producing pommel rings even later.

20th January 2017, 11:48 PM	#2
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi A.alnakkas, Thanks for your sympathetic post. Unfortunately, I have no real answers. Shibr or shiber is an old Arab length unit denoting the distance between the tip of the pink and the tip of the thumb when the hand palm is fully spreat. This avarages 20cm (just under 8 inch). It is said that the name shibriya originates from this distance. While this could be true, it does not make practical sense because in most shibriyas the blade is shorter than 20cm, but the whole dagger is longer. Perhaps when the name stuck to the dagger, avarage blade length was 20cm, but even early shibriyas by the same maker vary greatly in size, as you can see above. Shibriya is a name, not a definition, so like in most daggers, there is no absolute truth. Bedouin daggers with recurve blade are called shibriya by both collectors and local people. There are some mixed dharia/shibriya types from the Hijaz, but I don't know how local called them. There are also some mixed forms in from Syria. I think that all Syrian dagger are caller khanjar-the generic name for dagger in arabic. Other shibriya-like daggers from Palestine and also those from Majdal Shams are also called khanjar by local people (not jambiya, as they are often reffered to by collectors). In photographs predating WWI, bedouin (bedu) carry daggers similar to the shibriya, but with specific curved blade shape that is popular in other daggers from the same period and area. I don't know how they were called. This rather lengthy post sumarizes what I know. I added some examples and old photos of this latter shibriya precursor type. Regards, Eytan Attached Images

21st January 2017, 01:16 PM	#4
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Dog-leg Thanks Ariel. Dog-leg it is. Dog-leg blade is also the tell tale sign of older Majdalis between late 19th century and WWI. Disk and ring on the pommel are typical of pre-shibriyas as well as early shibriyas, and went out of fashion around 1940. One or two sub-types kept producing pommel rings even later. Attached Images

20th January 2017, 08:40 PM	#1
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hey Motan, I have been following your contributions with great interest and like you, I struggle with the lack of material. Shibriyas are usually simple, but some examples are quite nice. Is it the size or the blade that makes a dagger a shibriya? Arabs in all regions that use shibriyas (more wide spread than the levant) define it by the size. While Western collectors I notice to define it by blade type. I like your older examples, rarely find them lately.

21st January 2017, 01:58 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Dog-leg.