Tulwar handles on e-bay

Jim McDougall · 15th January 2017, 05:37 PM

In accord with Jens' note here, it seems to me that armouries were often the place where swords were assembled as required for rank and file, and perhaps even other categories. We all are well acquainted with the fact that blades were typically a separate commodity obtained through various means. Meanwhile, hilts, particularly tulwar hilts in India, were produced often en masse and distributed sometimes widely to other areas where often local decoration may be added.

I recall many years ago Jens mentioning this suggestion of tulwar hilts being stored unmounted so as not to furnish serviceable swords readily in case of insurgence, however that may have simply been presumed by British officials as these arsenals were inspected during the Raj.

It does seem that just as stockpiles of blades have often been discovered, such case might be with tulwar hilts in some degree as these as mentioned were often produced (particularly in Rajasthan centers) and distributed to other regions.

The case for hilts being dismantled for either valuable decoration or precious stones obviously is well known, but that does not sound particularly like the situation with the examples in question.

The pommel disc dilemma is another which has defied any plausible conclusion, just as the hand size lore pertaining to Indian hilts. It does seem that a removable disc option could have been feasible, but that is far from proven in most cases. It does seem I have seen tulwar style hilts which were without the disc (examples from Northwest Frontier regions) but cannot say whether they had been removed or never were there in the first place. It was said once in conversation to me that size of hands in Afghan areas tended to be larger, but that sounded a bit arbitrary I admit.

ariel · 15th January 2017, 06:31 PM

The story of separate storage of handles and blades and the alleged reason behind it goes back to Fernando's recollection of his conversation with Daenhart who, while in India, allegedly heard it from a Raja of one of the Northern principalities ( name and location not mentioned) who told him the story and showed ( or was willing to show) separate storage places. It can be found in the Archives of this Forum.

I was unsuccessful in finding another source, but have no reason to disbelieve either informant.

If anyone here has good contacts with Daenhart, it might be possible to get additional information.

Many examples on e-bay still have mastique inside.

Tirry had a single example of a pommel-less handle, but contemporary e-bay is chock full of them, all coming from India.

Quoting Churchill, "It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. "

A. G. Maisey · 16th January 2017, 07:15 AM

Taking a trip back to Birmingham, England between about 1958 and 1970, a major, very well known UK antique weapons dealer was using the mechanical damascus and wootz blades from Indian tulwars to create blades for well made but very fake Indian daggers.

At that time there was no internet and no international exchange of information, these daggers appeared in auction houses all over the world, they appeared in the catalogues of reputable dealers, they now rest in old collections.

When the Indian craftsmen caught on to what those Evil Englishmen were doing --- well, goodness, gracious me, they short-circuited the process and began turning out even better daggers than the Englishmen did. These Indian productions are still floating around and occasionally will be seen in most unexpected places.

I wonder what happened to all the hilts from those tulwars that were cut up to make daggers?

People tend to forget just how cheap tulwars were in the 1970's and 1980's. In the early 1980's I could buy Indian tulwars from dealers in Australia for prices varying from $5 to $25. Not masterpieces to be sure, but good, solid weapons with well made functional blades.

mariusgmioc · 16th January 2017, 09:24 AM

Regarding the missing blades in the original question, I remember reading somewhere on this forum that after the Indian Rebellion of 1857, thousands of Tulwar blades were destroyed by the British troops, many by being dumped into the ocean.

May this be at least a part of the answer to the original question?!

Pukka Bundook · 16th January 2017, 02:14 PM

It would be very nice to find a cache of old and good blades somewhere.
I fear though, that at least part of the answer is not good;

Some years ago I had dealings with a very reliable chap un in Rajasthan who sent me a few hilts, and showed me photos of many more, and a lot of them had blade stubs present.
Some of these I purchased as his prices were very reasonable and to my horror on receiving them, I found the blades had been freshly broken off!
There is no doubt about this, as the break was still shiny metal whereas the remaining blade surface was rusted.
I enquired about this, and he seemed rather reticent. On pressing him further, all he would say is that he had hilts with blades still attached for sale as well.
I think there are two parts to his answer;
One, many more hilts can be sold as some areas of the world have restrictions on blades, and
two, probably to him, a rusted blade is nearly worthless and therefore can be discarded and money still made on the hilt.
A good friend reminded me recently, that in India anything can be purchased, it all comes down to money. generally, the Western idea of interest in and value of antiques is not widely understood. it is Us that appear a little odd to them, but are quite happy to cash -in on our "Odness"!
I know this reply is unpalatable, but this is at least the reason in part.

I did press him to Not break off any more blades just for the hilts.
After all, a blade can be heated a little and soften the resin to extract the blade without too much trouble, but breaking the blade is quicker yet. (sadly)

Richard.

This gent also has hilts for sale on Ebay at times.

mariusgmioc · 16th January 2017, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

One, many more hilts can be sold as some areas of the world have restrictions on blades, and
two, probably to him, a rusted blade is nearly worthless and therefore can be discarded and money still made on the hilt.

Very interesting information! And yes, this can be the explanation as to why there are so many Tulwar hilts on sale.

However, the reason as to why the blades were removed is not because "some areas of the world have restrictions on blades" as US, Europe and Australia all allow the sale of antique swords without any restrictions. But the problem might be India itself as the law in India is prohibiting trading larger blades that are sharpened. I found this out when I purchased some recently made "Mughal" daggers and they were all delivered unsharpened to avoid the above mentioned legal restrictions.

And unfortunately the old rusted blade that can be discarded can be Wootz and worh a small fortune.

16th January 2017, 07:15 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Taking a trip back to Birmingham, England between about 1958 and 1970, a major, very well known UK antique weapons dealer was using the mechanical damascus and wootz blades from Indian tulwars to create blades for well made but very fake Indian daggers. At that time there was no internet and no international exchange of information, these daggers appeared in auction houses all over the world, they appeared in the catalogues of reputable dealers, they now rest in old collections. When the Indian craftsmen caught on to what those Evil Englishmen were doing --- well, goodness, gracious me, they short-circuited the process and began turning out even better daggers than the Englishmen did. These Indian productions are still floating around and occasionally will be seen in most unexpected places. I wonder what happened to all the hilts from those tulwars that were cut up to make daggers? People tend to forget just how cheap tulwars were in the 1970's and 1980's. In the early 1980's I could buy Indian tulwars from dealers in Australia for prices varying from $5 to $25. Not masterpieces to be sure, but good, solid weapons with well made functional blades. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 16th January 2017 at 11:08 AM. Reason: text correction

15th January 2017, 05:37 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	In accord with Jens' note here, it seems to me that armouries were often the place where swords were assembled as required for rank and file, and perhaps even other categories. We all are well acquainted with the fact that blades were typically a separate commodity obtained through various means. Meanwhile, hilts, particularly tulwar hilts in India, were produced often en masse and distributed sometimes widely to other areas where often local decoration may be added. I recall many years ago Jens mentioning this suggestion of tulwar hilts being stored unmounted so as not to furnish serviceable swords readily in case of insurgence, however that may have simply been presumed by British officials as these arsenals were inspected during the Raj. It does seem that just as stockpiles of blades have often been discovered, such case might be with tulwar hilts in some degree as these as mentioned were often produced (particularly in Rajasthan centers) and distributed to other regions. The case for hilts being dismantled for either valuable decoration or precious stones obviously is well known, but that does not sound particularly like the situation with the examples in question. The pommel disc dilemma is another which has defied any plausible conclusion, just as the hand size lore pertaining to Indian hilts. It does seem that a removable disc option could have been feasible, but that is far from proven in most cases. It does seem I have seen tulwar style hilts which were without the disc (examples from Northwest Frontier regions) but cannot say whether they had been removed or never were there in the first place. It was said once in conversation to me that size of hands in Afghan areas tended to be larger, but that sounded a bit arbitrary I admit.

15th January 2017, 06:31 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The story of separate storage of handles and blades and the alleged reason behind it goes back to Fernando's recollection of his conversation with Daenhart who, while in India, allegedly heard it from a Raja of one of the Northern principalities ( name and location not mentioned) who told him the story and showed ( or was willing to show) separate storage places. It can be found in the Archives of this Forum. I was unsuccessful in finding another source, but have no reason to disbelieve either informant. If anyone here has good contacts with Daenhart, it might be possible to get additional information. Many examples on e-bay still have mastique inside. Tirry had a single example of a pommel-less handle, but contemporary e-bay is chock full of them, all coming from India. Quoting Churchill, "It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. "

16th January 2017, 09:24 AM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Regarding the missing blades in the original question, I remember reading somewhere on this forum that after the Indian Rebellion of 1857, thousands of Tulwar blades were destroyed by the British troops, many by being dumped into the ocean. May this be at least a part of the answer to the original question?!

16th January 2017, 02:14 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	It would be very nice to find a cache of old and good blades somewhere. I fear though, that at least part of the answer is not good; Some years ago I had dealings with a very reliable chap un in Rajasthan who sent me a few hilts, and showed me photos of many more, and a lot of them had blade stubs present. Some of these I purchased as his prices were very reasonable and to my horror on receiving them, I found the blades had been freshly broken off! There is no doubt about this, as the break was still shiny metal whereas the remaining blade surface was rusted. I enquired about this, and he seemed rather reticent. On pressing him further, all he would say is that he had hilts with blades still attached for sale as well. I think there are two parts to his answer; One, many more hilts can be sold as some areas of the world have restrictions on blades, and two, probably to him, a rusted blade is nearly worthless and therefore can be discarded and money still made on the hilt. A good friend reminded me recently, that in India anything can be purchased, it all comes down to money. generally, the Western idea of interest in and value of antiques is not widely understood. it is Us that appear a little odd to them, but are quite happy to cash -in on our "Odness"! I know this reply is unpalatable, but this is at least the reason in part. I did press him to Not break off any more blades just for the hilts. After all, a blade can be heated a little and soften the resin to extract the blade without too much trouble, but breaking the blade is quicker yet. (sadly) Richard. This gent also has hilts for sale on Ebay at times.