Torador Matchlock - Finished

Pukka Bundook · 13th January 2017, 01:50 PM

Update;
My Jaipur sporting matchlock barrel has arrived Rick, and it is a Lovely barrel!
Bore is very good And! ....It has No chamber at the breech!!!!
Smooth and a true cylinder all the way down.
Bit of light rust inside and out, but compared to many torador barrels, it's a lovely one.

Had to share. :-)
4 other barrels arrived at same time and the Persian ones are fantastic. So slim and light! 2 more torador barrels as well, from up in Oudh I believe.. Bores a bit rougher & no time yet to chech for chambers but think they will surely have them.
More as and when. :-)

Richard.

rickystl · 13th January 2017, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Update;
My Jaipur sporting matchlock barrel has arrived Rick, and it is a Lovely barrel!
Bore is very good And! ....It has No chamber at the breech!!!!
Smooth and a true cylinder all the way down.
Bit of light rust inside and out, but compared to many torador barrels, it's a lovely one.

Had to share. :-)
4 other barrels arrived at same time and the Persian ones are fantastic. So slim and light! 2 more torador barrels as well, from up in Oudh I believe.. Bores a bit rougher & no time yet to chech for chambers but think they will surely have them.
More as and when. :-)

Richard.

Hi Richard

WOW !!! All those barrels delivered at once! Merry be-lated Christmas. LOL.
Can't believe it. The one Torador barrel turns out to be cylinder bore it's full length ? Super !!! Hard to believe. I think it's trying to tell you it wants to shoot again. LOL Sounds like it just needs a burnishing and it will be ready to go. Very cool.
Do you think the stock can be restored ? Once you get started on the project please start a new Thread and keep us posted of your progress. Should be fun.
Also, post the other barrels if you want. We see very few Persian made barrels.

Rick

Pukka Bundook · 14th January 2017, 02:21 AM

I will do as you request Rick, re. another thread when I get at the broken stock.
Yes, it can be mended, because I've decided it Has to be mended,...but as yet I have to figure out how best, exactly. :-)

Persian barrels had lived in Oman I believe, by the part stocks that came with them. Still, I believe they Are Persian. One is near identical to an example in Tipu Sultan's arsenal.....which maybe gives me legit reason to stock one up that way! lol...
Odd thing is, it says that his barrel in Indian, re-used!
"The Firearms of Tipu Sultan, Page 128 & 9.
I don't have a copy of the book, but a pal sent me a file showing it, but can't seem to copy it.

archer · 11th February 2018, 06:19 PM

Great project loving the whole thing. Richard is right as well, we need to try getting a safe competition started for comparison. Elgood mentions Akbar proofing his Toradors by filing the barrels to the top and that half full barrels had a tendency to burst.It must have a reference to chamber not the barrel? I have always read that with black powder you must have a bullet seated directly on top of it to avoid air space and excessive pressures. We need to see if by their mastery of blacksmithing these bottle necked chambers made them the magnum of their day. So can we use less modern black powder and a filler like cornmeal, grits, cream of wheat? It will be awhile but i'd love to do some testing. Steve

Philip · 11th February 2018, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

Great project loving the whole thing. Richard is right as well, we need to try getting a safe competition started for comparison. Elgood mentions Akbar proofing his Toradors by filing the barrels to the top and that half full barrels had a tendency to burst.It must have a reference to chamber not the barrel? I have always read that with black powder you must have a bullet seated directly on top of it to avoid air space and excessive pressures. Steve

Air space in a chamber or barrel can created dangerous pressures no matter what the breech configuration or powder requirements of a firearm are. I've had a lot of experience handloading cartridges using black and nitro powders for various vintage firearms, and the one thing the manuals emphasize is never to under-fill a cartridge case for this very reason. Light "squib" loads require a filler like kapok fiber (some shooters used wadded up toilet paper!) between the powder and the seated bullet. Also, firearms safety experts always warn never to shoot a gun whose barrel has an obstruction of any kind, whether a bit of mud, a forgotten cleaning patch, or whatever.

I agree regarding the Akbar text, it's hard to believe that "filling to the top" meant to the muzzle. As a matter of comparison, here is a description of proof firing as done in Spain in the 16th cent., this from a 1644 treatise by gun expert Alonzo Martínez de Espinar in his Arte de Ballestería y Montería :

"...to make sure of its solidity and resistance, it was tested by pouring in a quantity of powder equal to the weight of the ball that it took, with a tight-fitting tarred wad; on this the weight of four balls of large shot with another wad like the first; when the barrel was charged in this manner, they fired it off in a remote spot, and it it stood the same test three times, they put the marks on it and continued their work to its completion."

Considering the relative density of gunpowder and lead, the powder charges in these proof loads must have been considerable.

The rigorous testing was apparently continued in following centuries in that country, and enabled such qualitative improvements in barrel-forging technology that by the 18th cent. Spanish smiths, using the very ductile iron recycled from Vizcayan horseshoes, were able to produce shotgun barrels that of such lightness and strength that they were widely faked in Germany and elsewhere, and which equalled if not superseded the tubes made by the legendary Cominazzo family of Brescia in the previous century.

kahnjar1 · 11th February 2018, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

Great project loving the whole thing. Richard is right as well, we need to try getting a safe competition started for comparison. Elgood mentions Akbar proofing his Toradors by filing the barrels to the top and that half full barrels had a tendency to burst.It must have a reference to chamber not the barrel? I have always read that with black powder you must have a bullet seated directly on top of it to avoid air space and excessive pressures. We need to see if by their mastery of blacksmithing these bottle necked chambers made them the magnum of their day. So can we use less modern black powder and a filler like cornmeal, grits, cream of wheat? It will be awhile but i'd love to do some testing. Steve

Hi Steve,
You are correct regarding the need to have the ball sitting tight on top of the powder charge as any gap is likely to create a "piston" effect, thereby creating excess pressure build up. This of course should also be followed with any muzzle loader charge, not just barrels with tapered chambers.
I guess a suitable wadding between the powder charge and the ball would solve any gap problem, and YES, it is also very likely that modern black powder could well be far more powerful than that from years gone by, so testing with a light load is probably a good idea! We used 4F from memory when we shot old muzzle loaders in years gone by. I say "from memory" as it's probably 30+ years since I shot any black powder gun. Coarser powder the better as it burns a bit slower than the fine stuff.
A safe way to test is to lash the gun to an old tire and retire a safe distance with a string attached to the trigger. That way you will only destroy the gun if something goes wrong, and not yourself!

Safe shooting.
Stu

archer · 11th February 2018, 09:13 PM

Hi Stu,
I have used the tie it down method too, good job I Did.
That the film we have been using to demonstrate chambers uses dried
Dung Or dirt between powder and ball. Akbar was a renaissance man he is credited with coming up with spiraling barrels, thus making them much stronger and safer Steve

Pukka Bundook · 12th February 2018, 02:49 AM

A very nice thread gents,

I have just enjoyed the last few new comments.

Steve, In translation we may well have lost the true meaning of how Akbar had the barrels tested. A full Chamber sounds more sense than a full barrel!

This also begs the question, Why a chamber would be constructed so large that it was (apparently ) common to only half fill it.?

Loading these chambered barrels appears to have taken longer, and why they were continued in use after corned powder I do not know.
We do read that some Very high quality powder was produced over there, So I for one can't come up with a good reason for what we find today.

Stu,

The powder you used years back would be coarse, like 1F or 2F I would imagine. 4F is priming powder for matchlocks and such, and would more or less detonate in a barrel if used as the main charge.

Regarding air space, a small airspace in a cartridge is completely fine with black powder, Some International shooting friends load in this manner, but please do not give me grief about it, because I do not! :-)

Steve, again if I may,
Trying your cow dung yesterday worked very well. The toradar went off like a rocket. :-)
It packed nicely in the chamber so appears to be very cheap form of wadding! (Here on the farm, that is!....Dried, Not fresh stuff LOL!)

I would Really look forward to us having some kind of a competition for these old arms!

We Do have an annual shoot here on the farm, and I did use mine a little last year. We also shoot European style matchlocks, my latest creation being a short snapping matchlock based on one of Michael T's beloved guns.

If anyone would like to come up (or down) to Alberta in late June, please just drop me a line, you would be more than welcome! (Victorian theme really, but we sneak other things in!)

To try an old arm, I usually tie it to a saw horse and fire it remote with a long string.
At the time of trying the toradar barrel yesterday, I also tried a lovely little Persian barrel, it is very promising though may need the touchhole re-piercing, as it is Much too high and flashed repeatedly.

All the best,
Richard.

11th February 2018, 06:19 PM	#4
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	WOW Great project loving the whole thing. Richard is right as well, we need to try getting a safe competition started for comparison. Elgood mentions Akbar proofing his Toradors by filing the barrels to the top and that half full barrels had a tendency to burst.It must have a reference to chamber not the barrel? I have always read that with black powder you must have a bullet seated directly on top of it to avoid air space and excessive pressures. We need to see if by their mastery of blacksmithing these bottle necked chambers made them the magnum of their day. So can we use less modern black powder and a filler like cornmeal, grits, cream of wheat? It will be awhile but i'd love to do some testing. Steve

11th February 2018, 09:13 PM	#7
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Torador finished Hi Stu, I have used the tie it down method too, good job I Did. That the film we have been using to demonstrate chambers uses dried Dung Or dirt between powder and ball. Akbar was a renaissance man he is credited with coming up with spiraling barrels, thus making them much stronger and safer Steve Last edited by archer; 12th February 2018 at 02:58 AM.

13th January 2017, 01:50 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Update; My Jaipur sporting matchlock barrel has arrived Rick, and it is a Lovely barrel! Bore is very good And! ....It has No chamber at the breech!!!! Smooth and a true cylinder all the way down. Bit of light rust inside and out, but compared to many torador barrels, it's a lovely one. Had to share. :-) 4 other barrels arrived at same time and the Persian ones are fantastic. So slim and light! 2 more torador barrels as well, from up in Oudh I believe.. Bores a bit rougher & no time yet to chech for chambers but think they will surely have them. More as and when. :-) Richard.

14th January 2017, 02:21 AM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I will do as you request Rick, re. another thread when I get at the broken stock. Yes, it can be mended, because I've decided it Has to be mended,...but as yet I have to figure out how best, exactly. :-) Persian barrels had lived in Oman I believe, by the part stocks that came with them. Still, I believe they Are Persian. One is near identical to an example in Tipu Sultan's arsenal.....which maybe gives me legit reason to stock one up that way! lol... Odd thing is, it says that his barrel in Indian, re-used! "The Firearms of Tipu Sultan, Page 128 & 9. I don't have a copy of the book, but a pal sent me a file showing it, but can't seem to copy it.

12th February 2018, 02:49 AM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	A very nice thread gents, I have just enjoyed the last few new comments. Steve, In translation we may well have lost the true meaning of how Akbar had the barrels tested. A full Chamber sounds more sense than a full barrel! This also begs the question, Why a chamber would be constructed so large that it was (apparently ) common to only half fill it.? Loading these chambered barrels appears to have taken longer, and why they were continued in use after corned powder I do not know. We do read that some Very high quality powder was produced over there, So I for one can't come up with a good reason for what we find today. Stu, The powder you used years back would be coarse, like 1F or 2F I would imagine. 4F is priming powder for matchlocks and such, and would more or less detonate in a barrel if used as the main charge. Regarding air space, a small airspace in a cartridge is completely fine with black powder, Some International shooting friends load in this manner, but please do not give me grief about it, because I do not! :-) Steve, again if I may, Trying your cow dung yesterday worked very well. The toradar went off like a rocket. :-) It packed nicely in the chamber so appears to be very cheap form of wadding! (Here on the farm, that is!....Dried, Not fresh stuff LOL!) I would Really look forward to us having some kind of a competition for these old arms! We Do have an annual shoot here on the farm, and I did use mine a little last year. We also shoot European style matchlocks, my latest creation being a short snapping matchlock based on one of Michael T's beloved guns. If anyone would like to come up (or down) to Alberta in late June, please just drop me a line, you would be more than welcome! (Victorian theme really, but we sneak other things in!) To try an old arm, I usually tie it to a saw horse and fire it remote with a long string. At the time of trying the toradar barrel yesterday, I also tried a lovely little Persian barrel, it is very promising though may need the touchhole re-piercing, as it is Much too high and flashed repeatedly. All the best, Richard.