F. de Luzon's Moro Kris Collection

DaveS · 1st January 2017, 04:05 AM

Excellent examples. A++. Unfortunately, even average moro pieces, in the not too distant future might be hard to find...........Dave.

VANDOO · 1st January 2017, 04:48 AM

4 NICE KRIS ALL KEEPERS IT LOOKS LIKE YOU ARE OFF TO A GOOD START. MY FAVORITES ARE #2 BECAUSE OF THE FINE WORKMANSHIP ON THE BLADE AND #3. I LIKE THE INLAY WORK AND THE ANTING ANTING CLOTH ON THE SCABBARD. CLOSE UPS OF THE METAL WORK ON #2 AND THE INLAY AT THE TOP AND TIP OF THE SCABBARD ON #3 WOULD BE COOL. MOST LIKELY THE HORN USED ON THE POMMEL OF #4 IS WATER BUFFALO BUT YOU CAN NEVER TELL PERHAPS A GOOD WELL LIGHTED CLOSE- UP OF THAT MAY HELP FIND AN ANSWER. A NICE COLLECTION KEEP IT UP.

F. de Luzon · 1st January 2017, 09:26 AM

Thank you for your comments, DaveS and VANDOO!

F. de Luzon · 1st January 2017, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

4 NICE KRIS ALL KEEPERS IT LOOKS LIKE YOU ARE OFF TO A GOOD START. MY FAVORITES ARE #2 BECAUSE OF THE FINE WORKMANSHIP ON THE BLADE AND #3. I LIKE THE INLAY WORK AND THE ANTING ANTING CLOTH ON THE SCABBARD. CLOSE UPS OF THE METAL WORK ON #2 AND THE INLAY AT THE TOP AND TIP OF THE SCABBARD ON #3 WOULD BE COOL. MOST LIKELY THE HORN USED ON THE POMMEL OF #4 IS WATER BUFFALO BUT YOU CAN NEVER TELL PERHAPS A GOOD WELL LIGHTED CLOSE- UP OF THAT MAY HELP FIND AN ANSWER. A NICE COLLECTION KEEP IT UP.

VANDOO, here are the close-ups of the metal work on #2, inlay on the top and tip of the scabbard of #3 and the pommel of #4. Thanks!

Sajen · 1st January 2017, 10:13 AM

Hello F. de Luzon,

nice pieces!

I like special the second blade, very nice piece. I think that the scabbards from the first and second piece are recent but nothing wrong by this. Like Barry (Vandoo) I doubt that the inlays at the scabbard by the third kris from tortoise shell, I think they are from thin carved buffalo horn. What do you mean with "nito vine"? I would call it rattan.

And I also doubt that the pommel from the last piece is from rhino horn, most probable again buffalo horn. Can you post close ups from this pommel?

Also to you a Happy New Year!

Best regards,
Detlef

F. de Luzon · 1st January 2017, 03:21 PM

Thank you Detlef! I bought the first three from the same antique dealer and I was told that the blades are pre-1930s but the scabbards are from the 1950s.

The scabbard with inlay (#3) is said to be distinct to the Tausug of Sulu. I was told that it is made of tortoise shell but I can see that carabao horn is also a probability. A portion of the center of the back of the wrangka was chipped and lifted when I bought it, so I repaired it using a knife and sandpaper. I noticed that the material is layered and fibrous. Although I am not an expert, the shavings/chips did not feel like horn which makes tortoise shell a probability. I will post detailed close-ups and I hope you can help me identify the material. I might eventually approach an expert to examine and determine the material scientifically.

Nito is a vine found in the hinterlands of Mindanao, Philippines which is used for handicrafts. I brought the scabbard to a nito handicrafts manufacturer but upon comparing, it turned out to be a finer material than the kind of nito they are using. The manufacturer could not identify it and said that it could be a variety endemic to the island of Sulu.

Regarding the pommel of #4, again carabao horn is a probability. I will post close-ups from various angles and again, I hope you can help me identify the material.

All the best,

F. de Luzon

F. de Luzon · 1st January 2017, 03:33 PM

Close up of details of #1

Jungayan hilt
Ivory pommel
faded etching

F. de Luzon · 1st January 2017, 03:36 PM

Close up of details of #2:

Metal Work, hilt and pommel.
Pommel details. Is it wood?

F. de Luzon · 1st January 2017, 03:38 PM

Close up of details of #3:

Wrangka, inlaid front and plain back

Buntut, inlaid front and plain back

kai · 1st January 2017, 06:01 PM

Thanks for posting the additional pics! (I was slow with my reply...

)

Quote:

Close up of details of #3:
Wrangka, inlaid front and plain back
Buntut, inlaid front and plain back

The plain backsides do look carabao to me. The front sides don't come out very well but are mottled and seem to have a different surface structure: could be tortoise, indeed.

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 1st January 2017, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

The front sides don't come out very well but are mottled and seem to have a different surface structure: could be tortoise, indeed.

Hi Kai,

would be the first time that I see tortoise on such a scabbard, do you have an example you can show?

Best regards,
Detlef

Robert · 1st January 2017, 07:20 PM

Quote:

The plain backsides do look carabao to me. The front sides don't come out very well but are mottled and seem to have a different surface structure: could be tortoise, indeed.

Most if not all of the mottled look to the carabao horn on the front of the scabbard is delamination (separation of the layers in the horn) that was most likely caused by the heat created when the holes were first drilled into it. If enough heat is generated from the use of dull drilling tools this damage can be seen when first done or not until years later when drying and shrinkage from age can affect the horn and put extra stress on the material at these points. Impact from other objects can cause this as well. JMHO.

Best,
Robert

F. de Luzon · 3rd January 2017, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Kai,

would be the first time that I see tortoise on such a scabbard, do you have an example you can show?

Best regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

Thank you! Here are some samples of krises with sea turtle shell (as far as I was told) on the scabbard and pommel. I saw them as I was "hunting" for pieces for my collection.

F. de Luzon · 1st January 2017, 03:42 PM

Close up of details of #4:

Pommel from various angles. What kind of horn is it?

kai · 1st January 2017, 05:08 PM

Very nice presentation, F! Please also add putatively "lesser" pieces as often enough much can be learned from those, too.

Those 4 examples all look like good, antique blades to me - congrats! Did you source all from within the PI? (All 3 scabbards appear to be post-WW2, with the first 2 of quite recent manufacture as suggested by the other forumites already.)

I'm with Detlef that the hilt #4 is from water buffalo as well as probably the scabbard #3 (the metal on the latter is aluminium, I assume?).

Could you please post close-ups of the base of the blade (and pommel, too)?
I'd suggest discussing each of these pieces in dedicated threads for in-depth analysis - otherwise it will get confusing in no time...

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 1st January 2017, 05:28 PM

Agree with Kai, nice presentation!

Both, the inlays and also the pommel are definitive from water buffalo horn IMVHO.

Regards,
Detlef

VANDOO · 1st January 2017, 05:32 PM

KRIS #4 POMMEL IS DEFINITELY NOT RHINO HORN WHICH IS GOOD AS CUSTOMS WILL NOT BOTHER YOU.

THE LAYERS YOU SEE IS WHAT IS FOUND IN CARABO AKA WATER BUFFALO HORN. THIS LOOKS LIKE AN OLDER PIECE DUE TO THE WEAR AND CRACKS. THERE IS A GOOD POST IN THE FORUM WITH PICTURES THAT CAN HELP YOU LEARN TO SPOT RHINO HORN. BUT ALL RHINO AND OTHER MATERIALS CAN VARY IT IS SOMETIMES DIFFICULT EVEN THEN. I REALLY CAN'T TELL ON THE INLAYED PIECES ON THE SCABBARD SOME SEA TURTLE SHELL CAN LOOK LIKE THAT IF IT IS OLD THICK AND UNPOLISHED BUT SO CAN A THIN SLICE OF HORN. THE INLAY IS INTERESTING USING MOTHER OF PEARL, HORN AND SOME RED AND BLUE SUBSTANCE. LIKELY THE SCABBARD WAS DONE AROUND WW2. SOME OF THE MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE PHILIPPINE COLLECTORS WILL LIKELY BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU MORE INFORMATION.

kai · 1st January 2017, 06:06 PM

Quote:

SOME RED AND BLUE SUBSTANCE.

Hard plastic? Or more like glass?

F. de Luzon · 3rd January 2017, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Very nice presentation, F! Please also add putatively "lesser" pieces as often enough much can be learned from those, too.

Those 4 examples all look like good, antique blades to me - congrats! Did you source all from within the PI? (All 3 scabbards appear to be post-WW2, with the first 2 of quite recent manufacture as suggested by the other forumites already.)

I'm with Detlef that the hilt #4 is from water buffalo as well as probably the scabbard #3 (the metal on the latter is aluminium, I assume?).

Could you please post close-ups of the base of the blade (and pommel, too)?
I'd suggest discussing each of these pieces in dedicated threads for in-depth analysis - otherwise it will get confusing in no time...

Regards,
Kai

Thanks Kai! Yes, I found the first three in Manila but it wasn't easy. Here's the additional closeups you requested. :-)

1st January 2017, 03:33 PM	#7
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Close ups #1 Close up of details of #1 Jungayan hilt Ivory pommel faded etching Attached Images

1st January 2017, 03:36 PM	#8
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Close ups #2 Close up of details of #2: Metal Work, hilt and pommel. Pommel details. Is it wood? Attached Images

1st January 2017, 03:38 PM	#9
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Close ups #3 Close up of details of #3: Wrangka, inlaid front and plain back Buntut, inlaid front and plain back Attached Images

1st January 2017, 03:42 PM	#14
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Close ups #4 Close up of details of #4: Pommel from various angles. What kind of horn is it? Attached Images

1st January 2017, 04:05 AM	#1
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Excellent examples. A++. Unfortunately, even average moro pieces, in the not too distant future might be hard to find...........Dave.

1st January 2017, 04:48 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	4 NICE KRIS ALL KEEPERS IT LOOKS LIKE YOU ARE OFF TO A GOOD START. MY FAVORITES ARE #2 BECAUSE OF THE FINE WORKMANSHIP ON THE BLADE AND #3. I LIKE THE INLAY WORK AND THE ANTING ANTING CLOTH ON THE SCABBARD. CLOSE UPS OF THE METAL WORK ON #2 AND THE INLAY AT THE TOP AND TIP OF THE SCABBARD ON #3 WOULD BE COOL. MOST LIKELY THE HORN USED ON THE POMMEL OF #4 IS WATER BUFFALO BUT YOU CAN NEVER TELL PERHAPS A GOOD WELL LIGHTED CLOSE- UP OF THAT MAY HELP FIND AN ANSWER. A NICE COLLECTION KEEP IT UP.

1st January 2017, 09:26 AM	#3
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Thank you for your comments, DaveS and VANDOO!

1st January 2017, 10:13 AM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Hello F. de Luzon, nice pieces! I like special the second blade, very nice piece. I think that the scabbards from the first and second piece are recent but nothing wrong by this. Like Barry (Vandoo) I doubt that the inlays at the scabbard by the third kris from tortoise shell, I think they are from thin carved buffalo horn. What do you mean with "nito vine"? I would call it rattan. And I also doubt that the pommel from the last piece is from rhino horn, most probable again buffalo horn. Can you post close ups from this pommel? Also to you a Happy New Year! Best regards, Detlef

1st January 2017, 03:21 PM	#6
F. de Luzon Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 184	Thank you Detlef! I bought the first three from the same antique dealer and I was told that the blades are pre-1930s but the scabbards are from the 1950s. The scabbard with inlay (#3) is said to be distinct to the Tausug of Sulu. I was told that it is made of tortoise shell but I can see that carabao horn is also a probability. A portion of the center of the back of the wrangka was chipped and lifted when I bought it, so I repaired it using a knife and sandpaper. I noticed that the material is layered and fibrous. Although I am not an expert, the shavings/chips did not feel like horn which makes tortoise shell a probability. I will post detailed close-ups and I hope you can help me identify the material. I might eventually approach an expert to examine and determine the material scientifically. Nito is a vine found in the hinterlands of Mindanao, Philippines which is used for handicrafts. I brought the scabbard to a nito handicrafts manufacturer but upon comparing, it turned out to be a finer material than the kind of nito they are using. The manufacturer could not identify it and said that it could be a variety endemic to the island of Sulu. Regarding the pommel of #4, again carabao horn is a probability. I will post close-ups from various angles and again, I hope you can help me identify the material. All the best, F. de Luzon

1st January 2017, 05:08 PM	#15
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Very nice presentation, F! Please also add putatively "lesser" pieces as often enough much can be learned from those, too. Those 4 examples all look like good, antique blades to me - congrats! Did you source all from within the PI? (All 3 scabbards appear to be post-WW2, with the first 2 of quite recent manufacture as suggested by the other forumites already.) I'm with Detlef that the hilt #4 is from water buffalo as well as probably the scabbard #3 (the metal on the latter is aluminium, I assume?). Could you please post close-ups of the base of the blade (and pommel, too)? I'd suggest discussing each of these pieces in dedicated threads for in-depth analysis - otherwise it will get confusing in no time... Regards, Kai

1st January 2017, 05:28 PM	#16
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Agree with Kai, nice presentation! Both, the inlays and also the pommel are definitive from water buffalo horn IMVHO. Regards, Detlef

1st January 2017, 05:32 PM	#17
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	KRIS #4 POMMEL IS DEFINITELY NOT RHINO HORN WHICH IS GOOD AS CUSTOMS WILL NOT BOTHER YOU. THE LAYERS YOU SEE IS WHAT IS FOUND IN CARABO AKA WATER BUFFALO HORN. THIS LOOKS LIKE AN OLDER PIECE DUE TO THE WEAR AND CRACKS. THERE IS A GOOD POST IN THE FORUM WITH PICTURES THAT CAN HELP YOU LEARN TO SPOT RHINO HORN. BUT ALL RHINO AND OTHER MATERIALS CAN VARY IT IS SOMETIMES DIFFICULT EVEN THEN. I REALLY CAN'T TELL ON THE INLAYED PIECES ON THE SCABBARD SOME SEA TURTLE SHELL CAN LOOK LIKE THAT IF IT IS OLD THICK AND UNPOLISHED BUT SO CAN A THIN SLICE OF HORN. THE INLAY IS INTERESTING USING MOTHER OF PEARL, HORN AND SOME RED AND BLUE SUBSTANCE. LIKELY THE SCABBARD WAS DONE AROUND WW2. SOME OF THE MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE PHILIPPINE COLLECTORS WILL LIKELY BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU MORE INFORMATION.