Kris

CCUAL · 1st September 2014, 06:54 PM

I placed a bid on this non-eye catching kris last week on ebay. I thought it has potential....

CCUAL · 1st September 2014, 07:13 PM

the blade came up decent.....

Loedjoe · 2nd September 2014, 09:31 AM

You were quite right about its potential - congratulations on a very nice blade.

Gustav · 2nd September 2014, 11:36 AM

Congratulations, a very rare Pamor combination - 4 twisted bars at base of the blade (in a form resembling Pamor Ujung Gunung) and the same Pamor Ujung Gunung done in a common way at the tip of the blade.

Unfortunately Greneng and Kembang Kacang areas are severely reshaped.

(Sorry for using javanese Keris terminology.)

David · 2nd September 2014, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Unfortunately Greneng and Kembang Kacang areas are severely reshaped. (Sorry for using javanese Keris terminology.)

I am not convinced of this. I have certainly seen similar greneng on Moro kris and all kinds of sized and shaped "elephant trunks".

Sajen · 2nd September 2014, 06:08 PM

Wow, beautiful pattern and twistcore, can you show please the complete kris?

I also don't think that greneng and kembang kacang (katik) are reshaped, worn yes but doubt that this areas are reshaped.

Regards,
Detlef

CCUAL · 2nd September 2014, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Wow, beautiful pattern and twistcore, can you show please the complete kris?

I also don't think that greneng and kembang kacang (katik) are reshaped, worn yes but doubt that this areas are reshaped.

Regards,
Detlef

as requested....

Battara · 3rd September 2014, 12:18 AM

Great and unusual catch!

Ferguson · 3rd September 2014, 03:37 PM

The blade came up decent? That's an understatement! Gorgeous!
Steve

Sajen · 4th September 2014, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCUAL

as requested....

Thank you very much! Now I know what I have missed because I don't bid!

Regards,
Detlef

Battara · 5th September 2014, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

I also don't think that greneng and kembang kacang (katik) are reshaped, worn yes but doubt that this areas are reshaped.

Regards,
Detlef

I agree completely.

CCUAL · 27th December 2016, 07:20 PM

finally had time to fix up this kris. It has cracks and missing piece on the ivory but it adds character. thnks

Sajen · 27th December 2016, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCUAL

finally had time to fix up this kris.

Wow, great result!

From where you get the handle and scabbard?

Regards,
Detlef

CCUAL · 27th December 2016, 09:37 PM

My bad, I forgot to attach.

CCUAL · 27th December 2016, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Wow, great result!

From where you get the handle and scabbard?

Regards,
Detlef

The scabbard and the handle came together with a broken blade, luckily the clamp fits perfectly, so its just basically transferring the hardware to the new blade, with some grinding to the mouth of the scabbard. I got this at an antique store in Yuma, Arizona.

DaveS · 28th December 2016, 03:16 AM

Chris: Two great looking twist-cores. You did really good. I think both would go late 1800s to very early 1900s. Can't do much better than that. Haven't seen you since the Pasadena Knife Show. That was more than a few years ago................Dave.

kai · 28th December 2016, 04:13 AM

Hello Chris,

Congrats, great score! (No idea how I missed this thread...)

I'm not sure if I would have changed the hilt - I believe this kris originally had 2 clamps. The "new" hilt with silver braiding is very nice though!

Regards,
Kai

Ian · 28th December 2016, 05:08 AM

Very nice kris.

The blade looks Maranao in origin with an unusual laminated pattern. The replaced hilt looks more Sulu than Maranao, while the scabbard looks very new and also Sulu in style. The materials used for the scabbard are non-traditional in a number of ways, with the use of large headed nails and a rattan wrap that I have trouble placing.

Ian.

CCUAL · 28th December 2016, 07:43 AM

Hello Dave, long time no see and talk, I might drop by at the Pasadena knife show this year. I would like to show you a large twistcore kris that I acquired yrs back. Send my regards to Lonna.

Ian, I might be wrong but thru my years of collecting moro weapons and moro weapons only, I have seen several kinds of scabbards with small and large nails, and the used of rattan wraps but styles varies this style I've seen other wise I won't use. The scabbard came with large head nails not newly added but original to it. It doesn't look old now because I had them polished, I also had an old moro weapon plaque with same type of nails use. You can also search thru this forums archive you will see a few scabbards with the same features. The only unusual thing probably added was the braided rattan wraps and the red cloth.

Kai, you're right, there might had been a second clamp. I was planning to add two clamps but I still remember how costly this things are. The last two clamps I had custom made cost me half a grand.

Thanks for the compliment Sajen.

Sajen · 28th December 2016, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCUAL

The scabbard and the handle came together with a broken blade, luckily the clamp fits perfectly, so its just basically transferring the hardware to the new blade, with some grinding to the mouth of the scabbard. I got this at an antique store in Yuma, Arizona.

Hello Chris,

great luck! Agree with Ian that the scabbard look much younger as the handle, do you have reworked it?

Regards,
Detlef

CCUAL · 28th December 2016, 05:44 PM

Hello Sajen, the scabbard and handle came together and are original it just look new now because I shaved off the patina by polished the wood and nails. I added the cloth and the rattan wrap later. Thanks for the comments and compliments. Cheers

CCUAL · 29th December 2016, 02:08 AM

Can someone tell me which moro tribe this belongs to? based on the sheath and handle. thanks

Battara · 29th December 2016, 05:08 AM

I have seen this before. According to the silver mounts, baka-baka, front "mouth" of the ganga, etc, I would place this as Maguindanao. I will admit the wranga does look a little Sulu.

Do you now own this?

And great work on the other kris - really brought out the pattern!

CCUAL · 29th December 2016, 06:25 AM

[QUOTE=Battara]I have seen this before. According to the silver mounts, baka-baka, front "mouth" of the ganga, etc, I would place this as Maguindanao. I will admit the wranga does look a little Sulu.

Do you now own this?

Yes, I pick this up from ebay early this year. Thanks btw for clarifying the origin of this kris.

CCUAL · 29th December 2016, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

Chris: Two great looking twist-cores. You did really good. I think both would go late 1800s to very early 1900s. Can't do much better than that. Haven't seen you since the Pasadena Knife Show. That was more than a few years ago................Dave.

Hey Dave, long time no see. I was going to see you guys at the Militaria antique show in Pomona at one time but I missed the opportunity. Hopefully this year I can drop by at the Pasadena knife show. Pls. bring your twistcore krises. ;o) Send my regards to Lonna.

David · 29th December 2016, 06:40 AM

What is the material of the pommel on this one. The photos aren't very good, but it looks like fossilized elephant molar. Can we see some better shots of it?

CCUAL · 29th December 2016, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

What is the material of the pommel on this one. The photos aren't very good, but it looks like fossilized elephant molar. Can we see some better shots of it?

Hi David, according to the restoration person that did the sealing as the pommel material was falling apart when I rec'd it, it is made from carved elephant tooth. I will take close up photos when I get home.

Ian · 29th December 2016, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCUAL

Can someone tell me which moro tribe this belongs to? based on the sheath and handle. thanks

According to Cato, the sheath is Mindanao in origin, possibly Maranao. The hilt is harder to classify with its jute wrapping flanked by two encircling silver (?) sheet bands. There appears to be crenelation along the edge of the top band, a feature often found on Maranao hilts but by no means unique to that tribal group. The elephant tooth small kakatua pommel is unusual and not a characteristic finding for any of the major Moro groups.

Ian

Ian · 29th December 2016, 01:24 PM

Rarely do I disagree with Jose, but on this occasion I think he is mistaken in his attribution of the blade to the Maguindanao, at least if we are to believe Cato's classification.

Attached is a scan of Cato's Figure 39-42,* which I have labeled A,B,C,D: A = Sulu kris; B = Maranao; C = Maguindanao; and D = a "crossover" form. A picture of your kris (attached) shows the "elephant trunk" area is most consistent with the Maranao example (B) shown by Cato.

To quote Cato (p. 68):

The type that is distinctly Maranao begins with an elongated trunk [I think the tip of your trunk may have broken off]. The mouth cavity, while still present, is quite narrow, and the lower jaw runs parallel to the guard. While the Sulu, Maguindanao and "crossover" forms of the elephant's head/trunk motif display concave cavities beneath the lower jaw, the Maranao configuration does not.

Ian.

*Cato, R. Moro Swords. Graham Brash: Singapore, 1996, pp. 68-69.

Battara · 29th December 2016, 02:16 PM

Actually I was referring to the "tooth kris", the one with the fossil molar ivory.

On the one you are referencing, Ian, I agree.

1st September 2014, 06:54 PM	#1
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	Kris I placed a bid on this non-eye catching kris last week on ebay. I thought it has potential.... Attached Images

1st September 2014, 07:13 PM	#2
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	Kris the blade came up decent..... Attached Images

27th December 2016, 07:20 PM	#12
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	restoration finally had time to fix up this kris. It has cracks and missing piece on the ivory but it adds character. thnks Attached Images Last edited by CCUAL; 27th December 2016 at 09:27 PM.

28th December 2016, 05:44 PM	#21
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	Hello Sajen, the scabbard and handle came together and are original it just look new now because I shaved off the patina by polished the wood and nails. I added the cloth and the rattan wrap later. Thanks for the comments and compliments. Cheers Last edited by CCUAL; 28th December 2016 at 06:11 PM.

29th December 2016, 02:08 AM	#22
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	Tooth Kris Can someone tell me which moro tribe this belongs to? based on the sheath and handle. thanks Attached Images

2nd September 2014, 09:31 AM	#3
Loedjoe Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Oxford (UK) Posts: 96	You were quite right about its potential - congratulations on a very nice blade.

2nd September 2014, 11:36 AM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Congratulations, a very rare Pamor combination - 4 twisted bars at base of the blade (in a form resembling Pamor Ujung Gunung) and the same Pamor Ujung Gunung done in a common way at the tip of the blade. Unfortunately Greneng and Kembang Kacang areas are severely reshaped. (Sorry for using javanese Keris terminology.)

2nd September 2014, 06:08 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,794	Wow, beautiful pattern and twistcore, can you show please the complete kris? I also don't think that greneng and kembang kacang (katik) are reshaped, worn yes but doubt that this areas are reshaped. Regards, Detlef

3rd September 2014, 12:18 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Great and unusual catch!

3rd September 2014, 03:37 PM	#9
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	The blade came up decent? That's an understatement! Gorgeous! Steve

27th December 2016, 09:37 PM	#14
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	My bad, I forgot to attach.

28th December 2016, 03:16 AM	#16
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Chris: Two great looking twist-cores. You did really good. I think both would go late 1800s to very early 1900s. Can't do much better than that. Haven't seen you since the Pasadena Knife Show. That was more than a few years ago................Dave.

28th December 2016, 04:13 AM	#17
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Chris, Congrats, great score! (No idea how I missed this thread...) I'm not sure if I would have changed the hilt - I believe this kris originally had 2 clamps. The "new" hilt with silver braiding is very nice though! Regards, Kai

28th December 2016, 05:08 AM	#18
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Very nice kris. The blade looks Maranao in origin with an unusual laminated pattern. The replaced hilt looks more Sulu than Maranao, while the scabbard looks very new and also Sulu in style. The materials used for the scabbard are non-traditional in a number of ways, with the use of large headed nails and a rattan wrap that I have trouble placing. Ian.

28th December 2016, 07:43 AM	#19
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	Hello Dave, long time no see and talk, I might drop by at the Pasadena knife show this year. I would like to show you a large twistcore kris that I acquired yrs back. Send my regards to Lonna. Ian, I might be wrong but thru my years of collecting moro weapons and moro weapons only, I have seen several kinds of scabbards with small and large nails, and the used of rattan wraps but styles varies this style I've seen other wise I won't use. The scabbard came with large head nails not newly added but original to it. It doesn't look old now because I had them polished, I also had an old moro weapon plaque with same type of nails use. You can also search thru this forums archive you will see a few scabbards with the same features. The only unusual thing probably added was the braided rattan wraps and the red cloth. Kai, you're right, there might had been a second clamp. I was planning to add two clamps but I still remember how costly this things are. The last two clamps I had custom made cost me half a grand. Thanks for the compliment Sajen.

29th December 2016, 05:08 AM	#23
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I have seen this before. According to the silver mounts, baka-baka, front "mouth" of the ganga, etc, I would place this as Maguindanao. I will admit the wranga does look a little Sulu. Do you now own this? And great work on the other kris - really brought out the pattern!

29th December 2016, 06:25 AM	#24
CCUAL Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 76	[QUOTE=Battara]I have seen this before. According to the silver mounts, baka-baka, front "mouth" of the ganga, etc, I would place this as Maguindanao. I will admit the wranga does look a little Sulu. Do you now own this? Yes, I pick this up from ebay early this year. Thanks btw for clarifying the origin of this kris.

29th December 2016, 06:40 AM	#26
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	What is the material of the pommel on this one. The photos aren't very good, but it looks like fossilized elephant molar. Can we see some better shots of it?

29th December 2016, 01:24 PM	#29
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Rarely do I disagree with Jose, but on this occasion I think he is mistaken in his attribution of the blade to the Maguindanao, at least if we are to believe Cato's classification. Attached is a scan of Cato's Figure 39-42,* which I have labeled A,B,C,D: A = Sulu kris; B = Maranao; C = Maguindanao; and D = a "crossover" form. A picture of your kris (attached) shows the "elephant trunk" area is most consistent with the Maranao example (B) shown by Cato. To quote Cato (p. 68): The type that is distinctly Maranao begins with an elongated trunk [I think the tip of your trunk may have broken off]. The mouth cavity, while still present, is quite narrow, and the lower jaw runs parallel to the guard. While the Sulu, Maguindanao and "crossover" forms of the elephant's head/trunk motif display concave cavities beneath the lower jaw, the Maranao configuration does not. Ian. Cato, R. Moro Swords*. Graham Brash: Singapore, 1996, pp. 68-69. Attached Images

29th December 2016, 02:16 PM	#30
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Actually I was referring to the "tooth kris", the one with the fossil molar ivory. On the one you are referencing, Ian, I agree.