Zanzibari (?) Saif for Comment

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st December 2016, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I am guessing this is from Eastern Africa rather than the Maghreb based on the tilt in the pommel. There also seems to have been a metal piece in the pommel which is now missing. The guard is a little unusual and made of brass, no D ring. The blade has no markings at all and is similar to some naval cutlass blades in style. The whole sword weighs 529 grams (18.5 oz) and is 89 cm long (35 inches) the blade 73.5 cm (29 inches).

The hilt is of some kind of dark horn: feel much thinner compared to Moroccan saifs and also seems like the Zanzibari hilts tend to be polished.

Teodor

Salaams Teodor, I agree since it does not display any of the usual decorative detail of a Moroccan Nimcha and has the hilt and curved base to the knuckleguard.
In support I place library resource detail and a key thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha for readers to cross check. See also Butin charts at that reference.
I have to say the IIXII STYLING TO THE HILT IS INTERESTING...

...and I think the hilt is Rhino.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kahnjar1 · 21st December 2016, 06:59 PM

Hi Teodor,
Do you think that the knuckle guard and quillons are relatively new made replacements compared with the hilt itself? They look to me to be a bit thin compared with those normally seen.
I agree with Ibrahiim that the hilt COULD be rhino, and it also features the " turned down" shape often/usually found on Zanzibari Nimcha.
Some pics of a Zanzibari hilt to compare.
Stu

ariel · 21st December 2016, 08:21 PM

Could it be Algierean?

Those had 2 down-turned quillons instead of 3 on Moroccan and Zanzibari.

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2016, 09:10 PM

In looking to Buttin (1933), in the photos of a good number of these swords which we refer to colloquially as 'nimcha' they are described only as sa'if. In the plate with the familiar 'ring' or 'loop' guard and the distinctive peak atop the pommel of the hilt, these are described only as 'Arab' sa'if with no mention of Zanzibar. These are mostly labeled with optimism as 17th c with one (996) even to end of 16th.
It must be remembered this research and material was compiled probably in early years of 20th c.

The Moroccan examples (Maghrebi, incuding both Morocco and Algeria) are also described as sa'if with the pommel flatter and no peak. There is no loop or ring guard, just the downturned multi quillon system.

The only 'Zanzibar' designation seemed to derive from mostly collector terms which seems to have appeared in the book by Alain Jacob in the 1980s I think. Louis-Pierre Cavalliere in his paper on these a number of years ago also included that term.

I think Ibrahiim found the most compelling evidence linking these peaked pommel sabres with ring loop guard and some without with the linking of local material culture motif from Zanzibar on one of these. I think the form may be most properly served by 'Arab' however they seem most prevalent in that trade from India to Oman and Red Sea...from there of course to Zanzibar.

I agree the brass work on the guard on this one posted is 'thin' and clearly made 'in the style of'.
The 'X' and lines type of motif is seen stamped in the forte of some examples of these nimcha variations; they are seen on some knives and items believed from Afghan regions (some mistaken for the 'Royal Seal' Mazir I Sharif); as well as on some kaskara and Ethiopian cases if I recall.

While the blade here is of course 19th century sabre of trade or military type probably German, the hilt is much more modern recalling styles and motif from the Arab trade in the India-Arabia-Red Sea networks.

Richard G · 21st December 2016, 10:09 PM

I would go down Jim's route. It could be one of those curious hybrids that Yemen and the Red Sea coast often produce. Also, I would not rule out Sumatra or somewhere like that, produced for or under the influence of the Arab trading communities there that were once quite significant.
Regards
Richard

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2016, 11:21 PM

Thanks Richard. Actually my first encounter with these loop guard types was in the 90s and I was informed the one I bought had come from an old arsenal in Yemen and was one of around 40 there. These were said to have come from Zanzibar. Given the trade routes and supply from there to Red Sea ports, and along the Arabian entrepots that seemed quite plausible.

TVV · 22nd December 2016, 02:13 AM

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your comments, some very good observations and questions.

I believe the hilt, as far as the horn part is concerned, is as old as the blade. Are the brass fittings newer? It is possible, but hard for me to tell for sure. I am attaching two pictures of a sword with a similar hilt, which I believe was sold in one of Auctions Imperial past auctions. I hope Oliver would not mind me using those images for comparison purposes here. The guard is very similar, down to the X pattern on the knuckle bow.

Richard could be on to something as well. The brass fittings do have a certain SE Asian feel to them. Besides, when it comes to the blade, the closest one I have in my collection is on a piso podang, from the other end of the Indian Ocean, but certainly within the trade network of Arab and Swahili traders from the coasts of East Africa.

Regards,
Teodor

21st December 2016, 06:59 PM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	Hi Teodor, Do you think that the knuckle guard and quillons are relatively new made replacements compared with the hilt itself? They look to me to be a bit thin compared with those normally seen. I agree with Ibrahiim that the hilt COULD be rhino, and it also features the " turned down" shape often/usually found on Zanzibari Nimcha. Some pics of a Zanzibari hilt to compare. Stu Attached Images

22nd December 2016, 02:13 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Gentlemen, Thank you for your comments, some very good observations and questions. I believe the hilt, as far as the horn part is concerned, is as old as the blade. Are the brass fittings newer? It is possible, but hard for me to tell for sure. I am attaching two pictures of a sword with a similar hilt, which I believe was sold in one of Auctions Imperial past auctions. I hope Oliver would not mind me using those images for comparison purposes here. The guard is very similar, down to the X pattern on the knuckle bow. Richard could be on to something as well. The brass fittings do have a certain SE Asian feel to them. Besides, when it comes to the blade, the closest one I have in my collection is on a piso podang, from the other end of the Indian Ocean, but certainly within the trade network of Arab and Swahili traders from the coasts of East Africa. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

21st December 2016, 08:21 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Could it be Algierean? Those had 2 down-turned quillons instead of 3 on Moroccan and Zanzibari.

21st December 2016, 09:10 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	In looking to Buttin (1933), in the photos of a good number of these swords which we refer to colloquially as 'nimcha' they are described only as sa'if. In the plate with the familiar 'ring' or 'loop' guard and the distinctive peak atop the pommel of the hilt, these are described only as 'Arab' sa'if with no mention of Zanzibar. These are mostly labeled with optimism as 17th c with one (996) even to end of 16th. It must be remembered this research and material was compiled probably in early years of 20th c. The Moroccan examples (Maghrebi, incuding both Morocco and Algeria) are also described as sa'if with the pommel flatter and no peak. There is no loop or ring guard, just the downturned multi quillon system. The only 'Zanzibar' designation seemed to derive from mostly collector terms which seems to have appeared in the book by Alain Jacob in the 1980s I think. Louis-Pierre Cavalliere in his paper on these a number of years ago also included that term. I think Ibrahiim found the most compelling evidence linking these peaked pommel sabres with ring loop guard and some without with the linking of local material culture motif from Zanzibar on one of these. I think the form may be most properly served by 'Arab' however they seem most prevalent in that trade from India to Oman and Red Sea...from there of course to Zanzibar. I agree the brass work on the guard on this one posted is 'thin' and clearly made 'in the style of'. The 'X' and lines type of motif is seen stamped in the forte of some examples of these nimcha variations; they are seen on some knives and items believed from Afghan regions (some mistaken for the 'Royal Seal' Mazir I Sharif); as well as on some kaskara and Ethiopian cases if I recall. While the blade here is of course 19th century sabre of trade or military type probably German, the hilt is much more modern recalling styles and motif from the Arab trade in the India-Arabia-Red Sea networks.

21st December 2016, 10:09 PM	#5
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 411	I would go down Jim's route. It could be one of those curious hybrids that Yemen and the Red Sea coast often produce. Also, I would not rule out Sumatra or somewhere like that, produced for or under the influence of the Arab trading communities there that were once quite significant. Regards Richard

21st December 2016, 11:21 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Thanks Richard. Actually my first encounter with these loop guard types was in the 90s and I was informed the one I bought had come from an old arsenal in Yemen and was one of around 40 there. These were said to have come from Zanzibar. Given the trade routes and supply from there to Red Sea ports, and along the Arabian entrepots that seemed quite plausible.