After the Anglo-Sikh wars

ariel · 9th December 2016, 01:18 PM

The remnant of a patissa on the last pic is interesting: the blade widens toward the handle.

What a waste....

David R · 11th December 2016, 07:49 AM

I would imagine that they were part of a wall display or trophy of arms. One where the swords were arrayed behind a Dhal or other shield with the hilts and a short section of blade visible, and the rest of the blade surplus to requirement.

Kmaddock · 11th December 2016, 09:25 AM

Good theory David
There was only one Dahl in the auction and it was in good condition. The display would have to have been taken apart a long time to have such variance in condition. But I like the idea you propose we will never know real reason.
Maybe a relative sent the items home to Scotland and subsequently was killed in India and the family broke up the items in anger? Who knows.
Ken

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2016, 03:51 PM

I dont know what happened, but maybe someone at the Capenoch House would have a family story about these weapons.
It is vandalism any way you see it, and some of the weapons are not only old, but very old - 500 years or more.

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2016, 06:01 PM

This circumstance reminds me of another such travesty toward weapons, almost a deliberate derision of a vanquished foe.
In the tragic Scottish Rebellion of 1745, after the Battle of Culloden, many Scottish basket hilt swords were picked up off the battlefield.
In "The Swords of Culloden" Sir Archibald Campbell describes his horrifying discovery of a painted iron fence around at least one residence in England which was incredibly comprised of cut down blades off these Scottish swords.
On these blades were the familiar markings of the Solingen blades such as the running wolf, Andrea Ferara and others. It was heartbreaking viewing these once stalwart blades now rendered simple elements of a mundane fence.

To dishonor these weapons in this way is in my view a disgrace. There are so many occasions in military history where the victorious commander, as a gesture of honor and respect would refuse the traditional surrender of the sword from the other.

David R · 11th December 2016, 08:10 PM

The fence you refer to was around the London residence of the Duke of Cumberland, Commander of the Crown forces at Culloden. What else were they going to do with them? Sell them on the open market and find them arrayed against the Crown on yet another occasion!.... I would also point out that legally the Scots were in rebellion against their lawful government, so these would be regarded as the arms of traitors, not a respected enemy.

Jim McDougall · 12th December 2016, 01:03 AM

Thanks for the correct location of the fence.....now that makes sense.
Also for the interesting perspective Re: Culloden . I guess there are at least two sides to every story, and did not intend to get political. Perhaps there was just not enough iron around to build a fence without so cleverly using these blades.
With these weapons from India, it does make sense that they were altered to fit wall decoration settings. I guess pretty much the same concept. I would not imagine such captured weapons being marketed or sold for the obvious reason you note.
In India, huge hoards of arms and armour were captured in battles etc and taken to armouries such as Bikaner.

9th December 2016, 01:18 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The remnant of a patissa on the last pic is interesting: the blade widens toward the handle. What a waste....

11th December 2016, 07:49 AM	#2
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,120	I would imagine that they were part of a wall display or trophy of arms. One where the swords were arrayed behind a Dhal or other shield with the hilts and a short section of blade visible, and the rest of the blade surplus to requirement.

11th December 2016, 09:25 AM	#3
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Good theory David There was only one Dahl in the auction and it was in good condition. The display would have to have been taken apart a long time to have such variance in condition. But I like the idea you propose we will never know real reason. Maybe a relative sent the items home to Scotland and subsequently was killed in India and the family broke up the items in anger? Who knows. Ken

11th December 2016, 03:51 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I dont know what happened, but maybe someone at the Capenoch House would have a family story about these weapons. It is vandalism any way you see it, and some of the weapons are not only old, but very old - 500 years or more.

11th December 2016, 06:01 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This circumstance reminds me of another such travesty toward weapons, almost a deliberate derision of a vanquished foe. In the tragic Scottish Rebellion of 1745, after the Battle of Culloden, many Scottish basket hilt swords were picked up off the battlefield. In "The Swords of Culloden" Sir Archibald Campbell describes his horrifying discovery of a painted iron fence around at least one residence in England which was incredibly comprised of cut down blades off these Scottish swords. On these blades were the familiar markings of the Solingen blades such as the running wolf, Andrea Ferara and others. It was heartbreaking viewing these once stalwart blades now rendered simple elements of a mundane fence. To dishonor these weapons in this way is in my view a disgrace. There are so many occasions in military history where the victorious commander, as a gesture of honor and respect would refuse the traditional surrender of the sword from the other.

11th December 2016, 08:10 PM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,120	The fence you refer to was around the London residence of the Duke of Cumberland, Commander of the Crown forces at Culloden. What else were they going to do with them? Sell them on the open market and find them arrayed against the Crown on yet another occasion!.... I would also point out that legally the Scots were in rebellion against their lawful government, so these would be regarded as the arms of traitors, not a respected enemy.

12th December 2016, 01:03 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thanks for the correct location of the fence.....now that makes sense. Also for the interesting perspective Re: Culloden . I guess there are at least two sides to every story, and did not intend to get political. Perhaps there was just not enough iron around to build a fence without so cleverly using these blades. With these weapons from India, it does make sense that they were altered to fit wall decoration settings. I guess pretty much the same concept. I would not imagine such captured weapons being marketed or sold for the obvious reason you note. In India, huge hoards of arms and armour were captured in battles etc and taken to armouries such as Bikaner.