PBX

[A. G. Maisey]

Nope, never seen a keris sajen with kinatah. I do not understand why a keris sajen would be given kinatah. Its not as if you wear them.

Still, anything is possible.

Just a thought:- have the "gold" flecks been tested, or do they just look like gold?

Had a look at Kerner, he actually says its from the Solo Karaton, and he brackets the word (Furstenhof) which I guess is some sort of reference, but I don't know what. I don't read German. Any ideas who or what Furstenhof is?

Google reckons "furstenhof" means "a princely court", which fits, but is inaccurate, as the Surakarta Karaton is not the court of a prince, it is the dwelling place of a Ratu = king, queen, monarch.

Can't help but wonder where this keris did actually come from. Things bought out of the Karaton by outsiders very seldom actually come from the karaton.

[Kulino]

Gold specs are tiny and all over the skin of the keris. As I already wrote, even in the eye sockets. When the sun shines on the wingkinan tiny highlights on the whole metal surface. Since they shine so bright and seem to be on the metal skin and not part of it I have no idea what else they could be. I know of metal with a scattered gold dust look, but this is nothing like it. It looks very much like gold traces I found on an old Rajah Kikik's kinatah. Most certainly not like copper, messing of any other besi kuning. They do not shine bright but stand out just because of the colour of the metal. These traces highlight.

[Kulino]

Fürstenhof means royal court. Eventhough I knew Martin Kerner (I helped him out to translate some literature from dutch into german) I have reservations towards his research conclusions. But he knew the provenance of his keris collection most of the times. I believe mr Maisey and Martin Kerner were in contact also?

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your further comments Kulino.

In order to understand what you are telling us, I need a clear explanation of what you mean by "inside the karaton" and "outside the karaton". These terms are open to some very elastic interpretations, so can you nail it down?

Similarly with the idea of "keris belonging to the karaton" what exactly do you mean?

I do not know the exact current position with the things kept in the karaton store rooms --- if there is anything at all left there now --- but during the 1980's I did enter and handle some of the stored tosan aji there and I guess we could say these things were "karaton property" but even this is a bit of a queer idea, because it is all under the care of whoever the current Susuhunan is, thus, is it karaton property, or is it the property of Sinuhun?.

True, a lot of these items were not maintained, but it had nothing at all to do with "irogdat-kodrat" relationships, it had to do with available funds and priorities. The Karaton Susuhunan had no spare money. They did not have the monetary nor human resources necessary to properly maintain stored items that had not seen the light of day in maybe 100 years.

Individual members of the Karaton hierarchy, including Sinuhun himself did most certainly ensure that their personal possessions, including tosan aji in their care, were maintained. I saw Empu Suparman on more than one occasion carrying out warangan work for members of the royal family.

I'm not quite clear on exactly how "irogdat" should be understood, a few minutes ago I spoke with 4 native speakers of Javanese, in Solo, and none were quite sure of what the word meant, taken in context, they could guess, as can I, but clarity is lacking, even kodrat used in this way is a bit strange, even though kodrat is a common word.

What I do know is this:- karaton pusakas, and I'm talking here about all the pusakas, not just tosan aji pusakas--- are most certainly taken care of, and offerings are made to them.

This story about irogdat-kodrat relationship sounds like a good story to me, but it does not at all reflect what I have seen in action, nor what I have been taught. In fact, it has the distinct feel of something that is very Santri-centric.

Even the idea that "humans pay homage to a keris" is totally, totally off track. When an offering is made to a keris it is not made to the material presence of the keris, it is made to the spirit which may have entered the keris. The keris should be thought of in a similar way to the way in which we think of a shrine:- the shrine is just a momentary resting place for an aspect of God, when we make an offering at a shrine it is not the shrine that we make the offering to, it is the aspect of God that is momentarily resting there.

If we make an offering to a pusaka keris, that pusaka keris can be the shrine where our ancestors have entered for the moment. The keris is just a place for them to visit, its not the keris that is holy, but our ancestors, who may already have merged with God.

Yes, I did correspond with Martin Kerner. I did not agree with a lot of his ideas, but he was most certainly a gentleman.

The keris shown in post #9 cannot be classified as Majapahit if I apply the indicators used by Empu Suparman.

It lacks one dominant feature that militates against a Mojo classification, and that is the fact that it has a square blumbangan. A Mojo keris should have a rather narrow boto adeg blumbangan.

There are other problems with it as well, but I'd prefer not to make further comment because I do not have it in my hand. The blumbangan alone is sufficient to disallow Majapahit as a possibility.

As is generally agreed, tangguh is a vexed subject. It came out of Surakarta, and it arose to fulfil a specific need. The further we get from origin, the more the understanding of it becomes distorted. At the present time the system has become so corrupted that I seriously doubt if any true ahli keris from Central Jawa of 30 years ago would understand anything about the application of tangguh classifications at the present time.

[Kulino]

Elaborate
Dear mr. Maisey,
Thank you for your elaborate answer. I'm not sure how my education in keris compares to your knowledge. One of my teachers descended from the kraton Solo, my other teacher is related to the kraton Yogja. I believe them both to be honest and truthful. I would refer to inside the kraton as to the place where the Isi of the kraton is kept, guarded. Outside would be the face that is shown to the outside world.
However, I wonder if this is still a topic which should be discussed on this forum. I would be happier to exchange ideas in a different way.
Because of your response I will try to give words to my ideas.
I hope you agree with me that Javanese are very private persons. Sharing feelings, inner thoughts doesn' t come easy to them. As I was taught keris reflect large parts of this inner world, their personal inner world (if not all). Showing core pusaka and thus revealing your inner core during public cleaning ceremonies, would therefore impossible, not done. Fear of contamination, stealing Isi, giving insight in the inner core, a no go area.. I was told, the keris used during these ceremonies were copies. The real pusaka would stay inside, out of sight, guarded by the keepers.
Again, this story sounds very plausible to me. Apart from my two sources, I cannot verify this story. Saying it is true would reveal a plausible strategy, but also a scam. Denying it would support the current status: pure on the inside, stained/weak on the outside. This idea could be supported by the way the keris sajen looks. Nothing cosmetic, pure. The seals showing an intimate connection to Paku Buana.
To me, it is enough to relate to the keris who are in my house.
Not paying homage to keris does not mean, not caring or not looking after. They are family. One could consider this as a different perspective.
To me, it differs from keris to keris, depending on its function.

Do you have any comment on the dapur?

[ariel]

Who or what is PBX?

[A. G. Maisey]

PBX = Sampeyan Dalam ingkang Sinuhun ingkang Minula saha ingkang Wijaksana Kanjeng Susuhanan Prabhu Sri Pakubuwono X Senapati ing Alaga Ngah 'Abdu'l-Rahman Saiyid ud-din Panatagama

He would have had a couple of Dutch honorifics as well, that I used to know but have forgotten.

He was the Susuhunan ( ruler ) of Surakarta from 1893 to 1939.

That's why we usually shorten the names of these Javanese rulers to "PB + number" for Surakarta, and "HB + number" for Jogjakarta. In normal conversation we refer to the current PB as "Sinuhun" , I cannot give a direct translation for "Sinuhun" but it is a term of address used for a ruler, maybe a bit like "Your Highness", or "Lord".

You can also hear it used by domestic servants to their employers, especially in a sarcastic tone and with elaborations.

[A. G. Maisey]

Kulino, you may address me as Alan.

You have raised a number questions with your most recent post, and I will interpolate my responses.

Thank you for your elaborate answer. I'm not sure how my education in keris compares to your knowledge. One of my teachers descended from the kraton Solo, my other teacher is related to the kraton Yogja. I believe them both to be honest and truthful.

All people are honest and all people are truthful, however, honesty and truthfulness has different levels, thus honesty and truthfulness towards one person is not necessarily the same as honesty and truthfulness towards another person.
Then, in Jawa there is the ingrained cultural reflex that absolutely militates against the concept of gratuitous truth. In simple terms gratuitous truth is never welcome.
The natural result of this is that in a situation where one has a relationship with another person that permits the exchange of information in a form that is as accurate as the informant is prepared to indulge in, that accurate information will only come in response to a question that demonstrates that the person asking the question is ready to receive the accurate answer.

I would refer to inside the kraton as to the place where the Isi of the kraton is kept, guarded.

So in fact you were talking about the Royal Pusakas.
Yes, agreed, these can be regarded as objects to which access is severely limited.
However, it would be very wise to investigate the nature of the Royal pusakas of Surakarta, a good place to start might be Ricklefs: "The Missing Pusakas of Kartasura". Then of course we have the concept of 'mutrani'.

There are levels of knowledge and levels of permitted understanding.


Outside would be the face that is shown to the outside world.
However, I wonder if this is still a topic which should be discussed on this forum. I would be happier to exchange ideas in a different way.


For my part I have never put anything into this Forum nor into any other publicly accessible place that is unfit for general knowledge, nor will I.


Because of your response I will try to give words to my ideas.
I hope you agree with me that Javanese are very private persons. Sharing feelings, inner thoughts doesn' t come easy to them.

This depends totally upon the relationship, and upon the nature of the people involved. But yes, as a general rule it is correct behaviour to act in a restrained manner in public and with those judged to be on a different emotional level. As above, "gratuitous truth is unwelcome", and this means all gratuitous truth. The behaviour pattern is probably the result of the extremely hierarchical society.

As I was taught keris reflect large parts of this inner world, their personal inner world (if not all). Showing core pusaka and thus revealing your inner core during public cleaning ceremonies, would therefore impossible, not done.

The concept of public cleaning ceremonies never occurred to me. This is simply not done. If it occurs it is for the people who are still children. One does not parade one's personal possessions for all the world to see, and this applies most especially with one's keris, as the keris in fact represents the man who has custody of it.


Fear of contamination, stealing Isi, giving insight in the inner core, a no go area.. I was told, the keris used during these ceremonies were copies. The real pusaka would stay inside, out of sight, guarded by the keepers.

Any such ceremony, should it occur in Central Jawa could be regarded as sandiwara, something to amuse yg belum dewasa.


Again, this story sounds very plausible to me. Apart from my two sources, I cannot verify this story. Saying it is true would reveal a plausible strategy, but also a scam. Denying it would support the current status: pure on the inside, stained/weak on the outside. This idea could be supported by the way the keris sajen looks. Nothing cosmetic, pure. The seals showing an intimate connection to Paku Buana.
To me, it is enough to relate to the keris who are in my house.



What one truly believes is reality for he who truly believes it.
Nowhere is this more true than in Jawa, and within Javanese society, nowhere does this maxim apply more accurately than to keris related ideas.


Not paying homage to keris does not mean, not caring or not looking after. They are family. One could consider this as a different perspective.
To me, it differs from keris to keris, depending on its function.

"what one truly believes ---"

Do you have any comment on the dapur?

No, not really. I cannot give it an accurate name, it does not look like Jawa Tengah, but more like North Coast. In Solo I think most people would probably give it as campur bawur luk tujuh, but strictly speaking it cannot be campur bawur. Light gonjo, long point, North Coast or Madura Sepuh maybe.

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

Who or what is PBX?

Ariel, i think you might find this answer a bit less "occult" than Alan's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakubuwono_X

[A. G. Maisey]

He was a bit of a cult figure, still is if truth be known.

Really good at two things:- spending money and fathering children.

I've met a number of people who claimed that he was their ancestor, including my housekeeper, whose mother was one of the Karaton dancers.

Here he is:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakubu...r_10001903.jpg

[kai]

Fürstenhof means royal court.

I'd quibble that, rather than royal, noble court is a better translation - as already stated, it was meant to refer to kraton.

With dozens of kraton all over the place (or rather hundreds all over the archipelago), their usually rather restricted area of control, varying levels of dependencies and changing alliances, visiting Europeans certainly noted some similarities with European nobility. However, compared to the situation at home combined with colonial aspirations, it would have been psychologically a bit tough to accept all these usually pretty confined entities as kingdoms. Thus, Europeans tended to settle for some more generic term or lower hierarchy within the nobility scale: Fürstenhof in German, vorstenhof in Nederlands, etc.

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Had a look at Kerner, he actually says its from the Solo Karaton, and he brackets the word (Furstenhof) which I guess is some sort of reference, but I don't know what. I don't read German. Any ideas who or what Furstenhof is?

Google reckons "furstenhof" means "a princely court", which fits, but is inaccurate, as the Surakarta Karaton is not the court of a prince, it is the dwelling place of a Ratu = king, queen, monarch.

Can't help but wonder where this keris did actually come from. Things bought out of the Karaton by outsiders very seldom actually come from the karaton.

Hallo Alan,

I don't have the context but it's nearly sure that he mean with "fürstenhof" simple the ceraton. "Fürst" is a german title of nobility and don't mean "prince". That's the traps of translation in fine!
Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Detlef.

Yes, I understand the word now, and its not important. When I first saw it in brackets, I thought it might have been a reference that would supply more info, but clearly not.

Yes, he was probably trying to explain exactly what a kraton is --- something that is not easy, its not really a royal court or princely court or any kind of court, but in English, and I guess other European languages that might be about as close as we can get.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, he was probably trying to explain exactly what a kraton is --- something that is not easy, its not really a royal court or princely court or any kind of court, but in English, and I guess other European languages that might be about as close as we can get.

Yes, agree with you that "Fürstenhof" might be the closest "translation" for kraton he found and understand byself why he used this word. It's also a translation you can find in german guidebooks.