Sword conservation

ariel · 6th December 2016, 03:32 AM

Thanks Alan.
My problem is not so much with rust: that's what tannic acid is for. At the most I might consider removing a little bit of loose scales. Rust converters ( tannic acid + polymer) convert soft rust into very hard tannate of iron. I have a 15 century Bauernwehr that was preserved that way: black is beautiful!:-)

In your attempts you actually REMOVED rust, but tannic acid NEEDS rust to form hard substance.

My main problem is lime and some other mineral crud. This will not be affected by the tannic acid and may actually leave untreated, unhardened spots.

Any experience using vinegar? It removes lime stains like magic: I used it on tea kettle, shower glass doors etc with great results.

A. G. Maisey · 6th December 2016, 03:40 AM

Thanks for that Ariel, I've learnt something.

I've never used tannic acid know nothing about it.

As for vinegar, been using that stuff since I was little kid, like maybe 6 years old. True.It was one of my jobs as kid:- clean the saucepans.

In fact what I use to clean keris blades these days is vinegar, since pineapple juice went bad in this country.

Martin Lubojacky · 6th December 2016, 08:54 AM

Hi Ariel,

I would suggest, in the case of such old (archeological/field) find, to cooperate with proffesional (museum) conversator. I am of the opinion, that in this (field) case we cannot speak about cleaning, but only about conservation.

If it is my sword, I would slightly mechanically clean the surface to make it smoother. Than, as you wrote, it may be (aspecially in this old case) important to dissolve the ferrous chlorides in destilled water (i have never done it, but I saw conservators - they did it routinely. Re. tannin - I like to use it, because you can like unify various spots to one colour, if you do not clean it after (not only black - but in this case it would be black). Nevertheless I am afraid, that tannin would go only to certain deep, not to the healthy iron kernel in this concrete case - and I do not know how it can influence overal conservation result from long time period point of view(till know I only treated objects with thin layer of rust, with tanin - with good results.) After then it would be important to allow the tanin layer to "season" in colder and wet atmosphere for a few days ..., to become hard, compact.

But I think there are more sofisticated chemical methods, which I don´t know- for treatment of field finds

Roland_M · 7th December 2016, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for that Ariel, I've learnt something.

I've never used tannic acid know nothing about it.

Hello Alan,

watch out with tannic, it is not as harmless as many people claim.

If you have massive corrosion with deep pitting, tannic is almost useless and it also can ruin the surface of the blade.

Two years ago I tried out tannic on a japanese sword stick. The first attempt was very good, the hamon was very strong and clear. I gave it another try and the second result was horrible, the surface was ruined and the hamon was lost. I still don't know why.

Tannic is a good choice for WW2-pieces with relatively recent corrosion but imho nothing for your sword.

You also should know, that such a deeply corroded sword often looks gruesome after rust removal.

Tannic will be used with water and the water goes everywhere, into the smallest cavities and could make the blade more worse.

My suggestion is simple, use a creeping oil on the surface for at least one year or so and check the surface every two or four weeks. After one or two years of oil-treatment I would use sandpaper or steelwool to finish the surface.

Have you think about elektrolysis? All you need is a car battery charger a bucket and a little bit of baking soda. I already made it and I'm totally satisfied with the result. The heavily corroded japanese arrows in the picture had an electrolysis treatment. The lower part of the shaft is untreated. All you need to do is cleaning the object from time to time during the treatment. Very easy and safe. No acid, no salt and no toxic gases, just a little bit of hydrogen.

Museums often use elektrolysis for restoration.

Roland

ariel · 7th December 2016, 11:52 AM

Thanks folks!
Please keep going: aside from practical suggestions that becomes a valuable topic for general discussion and use.

Lee · 7th December 2016, 01:11 PM

I will see if I can find the instructions that I used to stabilize a Viking sword that was seriously flaking away. I suspect it is on the extracted hard drive of my dead computer.

I remember that I had to alkalinize distilled water using Sodium Hydroxide to a certain pH (11 by memory) and would then would soak the sword for a few days until pH fell towards neutral. This needed to be repeated several times for over a month. Finally, the pH drop stopped occurring. At this point I dehydrated in a series of anhydrous isopropyl alcohol baths (just like tissue in the path lab!) and then finally into acetone and then finally coated with paraloid B-72 dissolved in acetone.

This does not give a great display surface and leaves much of the rust, but it does have the advantage that it removes the inherent vice of the salts. The coating can be removed later with acetone if needed.

ariel · 7th December 2016, 04:04 PM

Lee,
That would be great!
Many thanks in advance!

Miguel · 7th December 2016, 07:35 PM

I am no expert but I was going to suggest Electrolysis as suggested by Roland. Since I read estrch`s post I have used it with great success although not on such heavily corroded items. As Roland says it is much used by Archaeologists and can be controlled so that you can remove as much or as little as you wish within reason there is plenty of info on the web for you to peruse.
Miguel

ariel · 27th December 2016, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As for vinegar, been using that stuff since I was little kid, like maybe 6 years old. True.It was one of my jobs as kid:- clean the saucepans.

I am glad you remembered the lessons of your youth:-) BTW, your remark was one of the highest inspirations for my attempt of "archeological conservation" . Many thanks!

So: what do you think of my final result?

A. G. Maisey · 27th December 2016, 03:50 AM

Actually, if I look at the botom pic, it seems as if there is good solid metal under all that rust. If this is representative of the rest of the blade, I feel that I might be brave enough to do a little bit of mechanical cleaning by picking off pieces of rust flakes. Maybe you might be able to get it back to solid metal --- but don't blame if you finish up with a fragile web of holes.

If you took it very slowly by picking and brushing with vinegar and washing, you might finish up with something.

6th December 2016, 03:32 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks Alan. My problem is not so much with rust: that's what tannic acid is for. At the most I might consider removing a little bit of loose scales. Rust converters ( tannic acid + polymer) convert soft rust into very hard tannate of iron. I have a 15 century Bauernwehr that was preserved that way: black is beautiful!:-) In your attempts you actually REMOVED rust, but tannic acid NEEDS rust to form hard substance. My main problem is lime and some other mineral crud. This will not be affected by the tannic acid and may actually leave untreated, unhardened spots. Any experience using vinegar? It removes lime stains like magic: I used it on tea kettle, shower glass doors etc with great results.

6th December 2016, 03:40 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,029	Thanks for that Ariel, I've learnt something. I've never used tannic acid know nothing about it. As for vinegar, been using that stuff since I was little kid, like maybe 6 years old. True.It was one of my jobs as kid:- clean the saucepans. In fact what I use to clean keris blades these days is vinegar, since pineapple juice went bad in this country.

6th December 2016, 08:54 AM	#3
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Hi Ariel, I would suggest, in the case of such old (archeological/field) find, to cooperate with proffesional (museum) conversator. I am of the opinion, that in this (field) case we cannot speak about cleaning, but only about conservation. If it is my sword, I would slightly mechanically clean the surface to make it smoother. Than, as you wrote, it may be (aspecially in this old case) important to dissolve the ferrous chlorides in destilled water (i have never done it, but I saw conservators - they did it routinely. Re. tannin - I like to use it, because you can like unify various spots to one colour, if you do not clean it after (not only black - but in this case it would be black). Nevertheless I am afraid, that tannin would go only to certain deep, not to the healthy iron kernel in this concrete case - and I do not know how it can influence overal conservation result from long time period point of view(till know I only treated objects with thin layer of rust, with tanin - with good results.) After then it would be important to allow the tanin layer to "season" in colder and wet atmosphere for a few days ..., to become hard, compact. But I think there are more sofisticated chemical methods, which I don´t know- for treatment of field finds

7th December 2016, 11:52 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks folks! Please keep going: aside from practical suggestions that becomes a valuable topic for general discussion and use.

7th December 2016, 01:11 PM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 938	I will see if I can find the instructions that I used to stabilize a Viking sword that was seriously flaking away. I suspect it is on the extracted hard drive of my dead computer. I remember that I had to alkalinize distilled water using Sodium Hydroxide to a certain pH (11 by memory) and would then would soak the sword for a few days until pH fell towards neutral. This needed to be repeated several times for over a month. Finally, the pH drop stopped occurring. At this point I dehydrated in a series of anhydrous isopropyl alcohol baths (just like tissue in the path lab!) and then finally into acetone and then finally coated with paraloid B-72 dissolved in acetone. This does not give a great display surface and leaves much of the rust, but it does have the advantage that it removes the inherent vice of the salts. The coating can be removed later with acetone if needed.

7th December 2016, 04:04 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Lee, That would be great! Many thanks in advance!

7th December 2016, 07:35 PM	#8
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	I am no expert but I was going to suggest Electrolysis as suggested by Roland. Since I read estrch`s post I have used it with great success although not on such heavily corroded items. As Roland says it is much used by Archaeologists and can be controlled so that you can remove as much or as little as you wish within reason there is plenty of info on the web for you to peruse. Miguel

27th December 2016, 03:50 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,029	Actually, if I look at the botom pic, it seems as if there is good solid metal under all that rust. If this is representative of the rest of the blade, I feel that I might be brave enough to do a little bit of mechanical cleaning by picking off pieces of rust flakes. Maybe you might be able to get it back to solid metal --- but don't blame if you finish up with a fragile web of holes. If you took it very slowly by picking and brushing with vinegar and washing, you might finish up with something.