A cup hilt rapier for id.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

No similar mark appears in the Toledo charts; which confirms the blade is not Spanish. Maybe some member knows this symbol ... which i don't recall seing myself.
... But having marks is always an added value, in any case.


Yes i have; also a 'Margarida', with a similar guard/hilt/pommel. You should also look for marks in the same area.
Both great acquisitions .

Fernando

I had A look in your sword I can see that I have one "ring" you don't have .
See atached pictures.
Best

Jean-Luc

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Fernando

I had A look in your sword I can see that I have one "ring" you don't have .
See atached pictures.
Best

Jean-Luc

I know. When i said they have similar guard set ups i was referring to both your swords, not to mine. Actually none of my cuphilted swords have a finger ring; neither you see this detail so often in cup hilts.

[Jim McDougall]

On this interesting ivory hilt cuphilt, the 'IN MENE' is an often used phrase or wording on German blades which in essence means 'in mind'.
The ship marking is most interesting, especially with this apparent three masted configuration.

A marking of a simple ship with sail and single mast was known to have been used by Clemens Kueller (Koller) 1675-1715 (noted p.143 Bezdek).
I am wondering if that might have evolved from the mark of a very stylized ship under the capital letter 'M' from mid 16th c, Milan. This is described in Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962, p.361) and stated the connection to Clemens Kueller from such mark and on the rapier of Heinrich Julius c. 1585. There is obviously a discrepancy in the period (by a century!) but this is the only 'ship' use in markings found.

I did find instance of the use of the 'ship' as an early Christian symbol representing the 'barque of St. Peter'
It is also interesting to note that the duchy of Milan was under control of Spain until the Spanish War of Succession (1701-14) which accounts (along with other Spanish provinces in Italy) for the profound connections between Italy and Spain in these swords.
The oblate pommels were a feature common on these c. 1660s+.

Nothing concrete, but interesting clues as to the period and details on this rapier.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

On this interesting ivory hilt cuphilt, the 'IN MENE' is an often used phrase or wording on German blades which in essence means 'in mind'.
The ship marking is most interesting, especially with this apparent three masted configuration.

A marking of a simple ship with sail and single mast was known to have been used by Clemens Kueller (Koller) 1675-1715 (noted p.143 Bezdek).
I am wondering if that might have evolved from the mark of a very stylized ship under the capital letter 'M' from mid 16th c, Milan. This is described in Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962, p.361) and stated the connection to Clemens Kueller from such mark and on the rapier of Heinrich Julius c. 1585. There is obviously a discrepancy in the period (by a century!) but this is the only 'ship' use in markings found.

I did find instance of the use of the 'ship' as an early Christian symbol representing the 'barque of St. Peter'
It is also interesting to note that the duchy of Milan was under control of Spain until the Spanish War of Succession (1701-14) which accounts (along with other Spanish provinces in Italy) for the profound connections between Italy and Spain in these swords.
The oblate pommels were a feature common on these c. 1660s+.

Nothing concrete, but interesting clues as to the period and details on this rapier.

Jim

Looking to This FALCHION (plate 110 ) with a M in a ship I have thought few minutes that this three-masted boat could be a boat with a M ON the top but looking more closer I have no doubt that it is three-masted boat.
Best
Jean-Luc

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Jim

Looking to This FALCHION (plate 110 ) with a M in a ship I have thought few minutes that this three-masted boat could be a boat with a M ON the top but looking more closer I have no doubt that it is three-masted boat.
Best
Jean-Luc

That falchion is the one mentioned in Wallace. The point was to relay other instances of the boat or ship in markings context as found in other instances which may or may not offer clues to identifying this mark. It is tempting though to think of the M as you note.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by fernando

...Actually none of my cuphilted swords have a finger ring; neither you see this detail so often in cup hilts.

Unless this was a later addition ...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Unless this was a later addition ...

Maybe, but why?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Maybe, but why?

Well, more than a fashion, the owner must have viewed it as a useful thing, to ensure a good handling control. Better than not having it, anyway .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Well, more than a fashion, the owner must have viewed it as a useful thing, to ensure a good handling control. Better than not having it, anyway .

That does seem pragmatically possible, and considering the fact that this might be a dramatically important factor for that very reason, even more so. I had thought of the German thumb ring, but those are at rear of grip and perpendicular to quillons or guard contrary to this example.

I often forget that swords in these times were intended for use in life threatening circumstances (looking more at historical factors) and that not only were they kept serviceable, but such custom features, blade shortening and sharpening etc. were regular requirements.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I had thought of the German thumb ring, but those are at rear of grip and perpendicular to quillons or guard contrary to this example...

Maybe the difference resides in that there are thumb rings and finger rings and their distinct approach ... what do i know .
Still in Jean-Luc's example you manage to fold your forefinger around the ricasso behind the cup, a traditional position, and your thumb locking in that 'extra' ring. Can you hold dreaming ?


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